Some more DIY madness!!

[boostjunkie]

Okay, so I've finished making the template for the airbox mod and have come up with another idea . . . this time: CUSTOM TURBO KIT!

With some parts I have already (mainly a vf-11) and the a/w intercooler hookup that Ciper has, I THINK I might be able to build myself a custom setup.

Here's some pics:

Over here you see the throttle body gettin fed from the right. Imagine hooking up an a/w intercooler to the throttle body. The configuration of the intercooler has the inlet from the turbo going towards the firewall. The exhaust manifold is behind the engine, vs. in front like the hondas.

Relocation of the battery will be necessary. I think I could get away with leaving the ecu in that location (right in front of the battery).


A close up shot. Not the ecu location directly in front of the battery.


I'd need to find a way to route the intake piping. Might have to switch the intake over to the passenger side fender (there's sufficient room under that big-ass plastic piece to accomodate piping.

So what do you think? If I can pull this off, I'd have my SLEEPER again!!

BTW, what would be the efficiency range of that vf-11 on a 1.8L engine? Mind you that this engine spins up to 8400rpm (with a VERY HIGH VE from 6200-8400rpm), so you'd have to take that into account.

[legacy92ej22t]

Hell ya Jason, that would rock if you can pull it off! In terms of the VF11 I don't know but I bet you could run upward of 16-17psi on a 1.8 . The question is, can your 1.8 take it?

[boostjunkie]

Hell ya Jason, that would rock if you can pull it off! In terms of the VF11 I don't know but I bet you could run upward of 16-17psi on a 1.8 . The question is, can your 1.8 take it?

That's the biggest problem I'm running into when considering the forced induction route. I dunno whether the cylinder walls (let alone the engine internals) could handle it.

So would this turbo still be efficient in the 6-7psi range? It doesn't really matter to me if full boost doesn't come on until 4000rpm, since it'll help me off the line (sound familiar Phil? hehe).

Then I'm hearing guys running Power FCs. That guy I told you running a 13.7 ONLY has an INTAKE and Power FC, NO exhaust!

[BAC5.2]

hehe Phil's Traction Control.

I was recently asked about the boosting of a Celica.

I've seen 288hp GT-S's on 7.5psi that have lasted a while. This was on stock internals.

I, however, would be scared. The GT-S has a huge compression ratio. It's also got a wicked thin cylinder bore. Those two things + Boost is just asking for detonation and bad news. The Super high redline and VVTL-i don't help things either.

Basically, if you DO go FI on the car, at LEAST disable the VVTL-i. I wouldn't want to think about what would happen if you jumped to the bigger cam under boost. Almost all of the Turbo Honda guys I know (there are a shit ton of them in the RV area) disable VTEC (or VTEC-i) when they go FI.

You know what they say. A car designed around a turbo is going to adapt to boost better than a car designed around N/A.

I'd say build an N/A beast. But that also costs a good bit of money (and I don't know if you could keep VVTL-i)

[boostjunkie]

hehe Phil's Traction Control.

I was recently asked about the boosting of a Celica.

I've seen 288hp GT-S's on 7.5psi that have lasted a while. This was on stock internals.

I, however, would be scared. The GT-S has a huge compression ratio. It's also got a wicked thin cylinder bore. Those two things + Boost is just asking for detonation and bad news. The Super high redline and VVTL-i don't help things either.

Basically, if you DO go FI on the car, at LEAST disable the VVTL-i. I wouldn't want to think about what would happen if you jumped to the bigger cam under boost. Almost all of the Turbo Honda guys I know (there are a shit ton of them in the RV area) disable VTEC (or VTEC-i) when they go FI.

You know what they say. A car designed around a turbo is going to adapt to boost better than a car designed around N/A.

I'd say build an N/A beast. But that also costs a good bit of money (and I don't know if you could keep VVTL-i)

See Phil. I'm listening:)

Yes, those two issues with the engine are what really gets me worried about FI. However, I don't think you necessarily have to disable the VVTL-i. My friend has a Greddy turboed Si and still employs VTEC.

I honestly think that it would be BENEFICIAL to keep the VVTL-i system, or at least the bigger cam. The way the VVTL-i system works, the ecu varies intake and exhaust timing a phase angle shift between the two camshafts (intake and exhaust). The LIFT is a separate system is a separate control on the ecu that uses a hydraulic actuator to slide the whole camshaft over to engage the high lift cam (if I understand this correctly).

Therefore, if you could somehow keep the intake and exhaust timing functions stock until that point you reached full boost, at which time you'd change the timing for almost no overlap, you'd have one helluva turboed engine!!

Couple that with the high lift aspects of the camshaft (that you could also set to switch at full boost onset . . . and GAWDDAMN!

The problem with the two-stage VTEC is that the timing change and lift operation is integrated into the high lift cam lobe. So when engaged you get high lift and timing overlap. They are not independently controlled. While the high lift is good, timing overlap is not so good . . . on a FI car, anyways.

[BAC5.2]

I dunno man, I just have never seen a 2ZZ that's been boosted for very long. When they ARE boosted, they are damn near supersonic (note: Vishnu Boosted Matrix).

11.5:1 is nearing the compression threshold that premium fuel can handle before knocking like a bitch. I don't think you'd see any longetivity out of the engine unless you ran strictly race fuel.

[entirelyturbo]

It can be done guys, easily and reliably...

Jason, dig up what you can about Sport Compact Car's turbo Matrix XRS. I can't remember the turbo size, but I can remember that they were only running about 6-7lbs with a HUGE fmic. They drove the car, hard, across country without one single problem. No knocking, maaaybe a ping occasionally. All this on stock internals.

[vrg3]

Well, they did eventually have problems. But they attribute them to a period of time when the car was out of their hands and was likely refueled with regular gasoline.

It does sound like with proper control VVTL-i could actually complement a turbo nicely.

You'll have to retard timing like crazy to not ping, though. There's no way around it with that compression ratio, I think.

What would you use for engine management? I think that might really be the hardest and most expensive part of the project. I don't know anything about the Power FC... I do think you'd need to use a standalone ECU though to get good control over both fuel and ignition. You'd probably need bigger injectors as well.

[BAC5.2]

A 3000 mile trip hardly constitutes a reliable car. The fact that it pinged as well, that's no good at all.

I mean, you CAN turbo it, and it WOULD work for a while. But if you want reliability from the car, I don't think this is the way to get it.

I'd go about building a beast N/A high-compression quad throttle beast. At least on that engine.

[boostjunkie]

It does sound like with proper control VVTL-i could actually complement a turbo nicely.

You'll have to retard timing like crazy to not ping, though. There's no way around it with that compression ratio, I think.

What would you use for engine management? I think that might really be the hardest and most expensive part of the project. I don't know anything about the Power FC... I do think you'd need to use a standalone ECU though to get good control over both fuel and ignition. You'd probably need bigger injectors as well.

After reading about the VVTL-i system, it's amazing the amount of control you have over engine efficiency both in boost and out of boost!!

I'd go with the Power FC, which is unbelieveable in its function! Plus, it plugs right in PLACE of the stock ecu!!

I'd go about building a beast N/A high-compression quad throttle beast. At least on that engine.

Kinda hard to make ITBs on this car since the manifold sits in front of the engine. The hood would need to be modified quite a bit.

Here's the info on the power fc. It takes care of cam-switching control, but it mentions nothing about the valve timing control, however, this might be included in the map functions of the ecu:

The Power FC proudly stands as A'PEX's answer to the constraints and limitations associated with most piggy-back style fuel controllers. The Power FC is a complete, stand alone, total engine management system capable of handling virtually anything thrown in its path. From multiple point fuel and ignition control to VTEC engagement (Honda applications) and boost settings, the Power FC is capable of accommodating even the most demanding performance enthusiasts.

The Power FC replaces the factory ECU and controls all engine parameters.(Off road use only, no OBD-II) Installation is as easy as replacing the factory ECU. The factory engine harness does not need to be replaced and all critical accessories such as air conditioning continue to function. By using the optional FC COMMANDER, the user can adjust and modify a wide range of settings. By changing various parameters and data, the Power FC will adapt to any of your performance needs. Since there is no need to upgrade ROM chips or trade in ECU's, the factory ECU can be kept by the original user.

The Power FC operates off of three Main Menus. These menus are : Monitor, Setting, and ETC.
In Monitor Mode, the Commander can display up to 10 parameters of data in real time. Monitor Mode can display:
Engine RPM
Ignition Timing
Vehicle Speed
Air Flow Voltage (Pressure Sensor Voltage)
Injector Duty Cycle
Boost
Knocking Level
Battery Voltage
Intake Air Temp
Water Temp
In addition, there are 4 display patterns allowing 1-8 parameters to be shown on screen at once. The data displays in numerical real time values with the option of a real time 10 second graph display. Peak Hold values and Display Hold functions only require the touch of a button. The Map Trace Mode allows Ghost Map Tracing of the Fuel Correction and Ignition Timing maps. This allows the user to visually see what point of the map is being used in real time. The Ghost Map Trace function leaves markers on the used portions of the map for easy reference.
Setting Mode allows full access to the 20x20 ignition timing and fuel correction maps. The user can adjust any portion of this map in 5x5 sections. Air flow correction values can be entered for vehicles upgrading air flow meters. Injector pulse correction menu is used when upgrading injectors on the engine. The Acceleration Enrichment Correction function improves response under hard and sudden acceleration. The Cranking Fuel Injection menu corrects the amount of fuel when the engine is being cranked, or when the water temperature is cold. A separate Water Temp menu allows fuel correction according to water temperature. The RPM menu allows rev limiter settings and idle RPM levels. Access menus also vary according to specialty engines. Rotary engine Power FC's accommodate leading and trailing ignition maps. Honda engines Power FC's allow for VTEC control. Complete boost control is possible by using the optional Boost Control Kit (Not necessary for vehicles that come factory turbocharged.). Changing data is easy: just access the desired point on the map or data, and push the FC COMMANDER keys in the appropriate direction.
The Power FC also comes preprogrammed with several base maps. (Currently with Japan Domestic Market Vehicle Maps. Minor initial tuning may be required.) This makes the initial tuning process much quicker. As with all other fuel controllers, the POWER FC should be tuned on a dynomometer by a trained professional. A high grade air/ fuel ratio monitor is also recommended during tuning to ensure best results.

Available Immediately!!!!!!

[BAC5.2]

Damn. I saw a video of an ITB S2000. Good lord was that thing a hoss. As would be expected from an S2k, no torque down low, but that thing was a SCREAMER!

What's the price of the PowerFC? If you want one, I can see what I can do.

[boostjunkie]

Unfortunately, that s2000 was running without airfilters, IIRC. Not very good in the way of engine longevity.

There's a group buy going on for $895. Retail is $980.

[vrg3]

Wow, that Power FC sounds really well thought out. It'd be really good to know more about how it deals with VVTL-i though.

[boostjunkie]

I'll try to find out.

[LaureltheQueen]

you should spend the money that you're saving making your own turbo kit on a real digital camera. :-p

[boostjunkie]

you should spend the money that you're saving making your own turbo kit on a real digital camera. :-p

LOL! Why would I do that if I'd just end up taking pictures of the STOCK engine since I have no more money for mods?

[BAC5.2]

Jason, if you are really interested in the PowerFC, I can probably get it for you for a bit less.

[boostjunkie]

A bit less than the $800 number, or a bit less than the retail?

[BAC5.2]

Than the $800 number.

[BAC5.2]

Damn, just called him, his distributor doesn't carry the PowerFC Sorry man.

[BAC5.2]

Wait... checking www.apexi.com the PowerFC isn't even available for the Celica (or any Toyota).

What unit are you guys using?

[boostjunkie]

http://monkeywrenchracing.com/apexi_pow ... 2000_.html

[THAWA]

you should spend the money that you're saving making your own turbo kit on a real digital camera. :-p

I agree