Grinding synchros...

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:50 pm

Lately I have had a notchiness/grinding problem with my 4th gear. Taking suggestions from another board, I changed out the Valvoline gear oil crap, and put Redline 75W90NS in my tranny and 75W90 in my diff. The new oil has not helped at all. I have one option left, and that's to mix Redline MT-90 (which is GL4) with 75W90NS (which is GL5). Supposedly, that will help the problem, and if it comes to that, I hope it is a permanent fix, not just a life support for a dying synchro...

I'm sorry, guys, but I am running out of patience quickly with this car. No matter what I fix, something else always follows it. I still have a cut CV boot, a tired power steering pump, an alternator that ain't putting out the juice it once did, and my shifter bushings are shot (my current project). And I will definitely not rebuild my transmission if that synchro truly is gone.

I have tried my best to overcome planned obsolescence, but I'm starting to wonder if it has overcome me...

If I end up getting a new car, I will try to stay with Subaru, maybe get a Forester; despite the EJ25 woes, I might be a guinea pig and see what that engine's lifespan is with someone as anal about maintenance as me...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 1:20 am

Well, it is a 12 year old car; there's no getting around that. Some of the obsolescence isn't really planned but is just a fact of life; rubber can only last so long, and metal moving parts do wear.

As for your gear oil, you might consider mixing in some 80W140NS... That's my plan, since my car shifts really smoothly in all gears when the transmission is cold but then gets grindy, especially 2nd gear, when the gear oil gets hot. I'm gonna try maybe 25% 80W140NS and 75% 75W90NS. Also, do you know how to double clutch?

I've definitely had the feeling you have, where it seems like so much is flaky with the car, so I can sympathize. Try not to get too discouraged about it; a CV boot isn't so hard to replace. An alternator can be rewound (I got a junkyard alternator that I'm gonna find someone to rewind while my original one's still in my car). I don't know so much about the power steering pump... Are they interchangeable with newer models' pumps? A junkyard pump from a newer car might not be too bad...

But, if you do want to get a new car, I have a black '97 Legacy GT 4EAT sedan that my Dad and I have been trying to sell ever since I bought this most recent Legacy Turbo. The car's in DC, but some transportation could be done. :)

Seriously, though, just take your BC out for a drive on a nice evening and remind yourself how much you enjoy it. That often helps me when I'm not feeling so hot about the car.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 2:10 am

Get a 4.44 LSD used, as they arent the preferred ratio so its cheap then grab a 5 speed from a forrester. Not only will you have an LSD but also better gearing and a newer transmission.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 2:52 am

I'll order two more 75W90NS, two MT-90, and two 80W140NS, and start experimenting.

Yeah I've been double-clutching lately to try to be as nice as I can to the poor thing. I think my conscience crunches more than the tranny does when I feel that

...

It's not that my problems are end-of-the-world kinda stuff, but when am I gonna catch up with it and drive a faultless car, even if only for a few months?

97, good; Legacy, better; GT, great; 4EAT, awww... Sorry, I haven't owned a AT car yet and don't plan on it soon...

I tried taking my car out for a nice spin one night, but its faults just ruined the whole experience. Josh is very anal about the looks of his car, I'm very anal about how good it runs. Besides, the lack of good driving roads here in FL disgusts me...

Ciper, sounds like a plan, but where am I gonna find these parts locally for less that $1000 total???

Sorry for my pessimism, guys. Being a BC-BF fan is harder than I thought...

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 4:34 am

Well, if I was really nice I could let you buy the 4.44 lsd i was going to get instead. I was just about to send funds.

Why does it have to be local? I was just about to have a 2.5l engine shipped from michigan to california for just under 200.....

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 5:17 am

Ciper go ahead and get it, don't let me stop your plans...

I'm just gonna try playing around with gear oil viscosities, and maybe if the universe is aligned correctly

, I might find a cure...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:42 am

subyluvr2212 wrote:I'll order two more 75W90NS, two MT-90, and two 80W140NS, and start experimenting.

Cool, keep us posted!

Out of curiosity, where are you ordering from?

subyluvr2212 wrote:It's not that my problems are end-of-the-world kinda stuff, but when am I gonna catch up with it and drive a faultless car, even if only for a few months?

Well, I guess, in truth, you aren't, really. It's very hard to get a 12 year old car to the faultless state. Though if the things you list are the only things you think need fixing, you could be close soon. If you really feel that your compulsion for a really perfect ride is that strong, I don't know if I can argue.

subyluvr2212 wrote:97, good; Legacy, better; GT, great; 4EAT, awww... Sorry, I haven't owned a AT car yet and don't plan on it soon...

Hey, I hear ya... That was one of the motivating factors behind my switch. The GT was a hand-me-down from my Dad after he bought his Audi A6, resulting in my selling my 5-speed Impreza. It was just too hard to drive the automatic; I had that GT (as my own car) only two months.

subyluvr2212 wrote:Sorry for my pessimism, guys. Being a BC-BF fan is harder than I thought...

We'd be really sorry to lose you.

I guess in your circumstances a BC/BF would be a good project car.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 6:50 am

I ordered my oil from www.autoil.com, and I'm going to order my new stuff from there too, pretty good service. Then I'll play around and post whatever happens...

I'm going to look at it this way for now. None of us use 5W30 motor oil in our engines, they would leak like crazy, so we have changed oil viscosity to compensate for not-so-new oil seals, I for one use 20W50 partial synthetic, even though it's not recommended by the manufacturer. Our trannies are no newer than our engines, so an adjustment as to what type of gear oil to use is just as relevant as the motor oil issue...

Don't worry, vrg3, I'm just kinda PO'ed right now. I'll probably become more accepting of my car's quirks again if and when I fix this. Besides even if I do sell my BC for a new Subaru, I won't abandon this forum

.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 1:34 pm

subyluvr2212 wrote:I'm going to look at it this way for now. None of us use 5W30 motor oil in our engines, they would leak like crazy, so we have changed oil viscosity to compensate for not-so-new oil seals, I for one use 20W50 partial synthetic, even though it's not recommended by the manufacturer.

I run 5W30 Mobil 1 in my current BC turbo and also did in my previous BC turbo, and haven't had trouble. But then again, I haven't had a really old one. The first one was killed around 70,000 miles and I've only got around 92,000 on this one.

Do most people run thicker oil than the stock recommendation? I didn't know that.

Our trannies are no newer than our engines, so an adjustment as to what type of gear oil to use is just as relevant as the motor oil issue...

Yeah... I kinda figure that a worn-out synchro has a better chance to sync up without slipping if the oil is thicker.

One winter (and winter here is pretty cold) I replaced my '97 Impreza's gear oil with some 80W90 -- manual says to use 75W90 -- and until the tranny warmed up, I couldn't get into 2nd gear at all. That transmission was much newer, and I needed something thinner. Maybe Subaru transmissions are just really sensitive to gear oil.

Don't worry, vrg3, I'm just kinda PO'ed right now. I'll probably become more accepting of my car's quirks again if and when I fix this. Besides even if I do sell my BC for a new Subaru, I won't abandon this forum :D .

Hey, the quirks give it personality. :) I don't know what I'd do if my "BRAKE" warning light wasn't on whenever it was cold or if my springs were strong enough to hold themselves up without rubber spacers stuck in them or if my sunvisor didn't droop onto my head all the time.

Post by **Legacy777** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 7:35 pm

You want to use the correct viscosity.

They give specs for a reason. The reason is that the tolerances in an engine & or transmission are a certain spec. On newer engines.....I consider the EJ22 & EJ22T a newer engine.....these tolerances are tighter then the old engines of the day.

Running higher viscosity oil is worse then running thinner stuff as you will starve the engine of lubrication, and in the tranny's case, have issues with the syncro's and other stuff.

10w-30 or 10w-40 are good options for oil choices IMO.

mile hi · Post by **mile hi** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 7:57 pm

I have fought the synchro problem in four different Subies over a period of 13 years and there is only one oil that will help the problem and that is BG Synchroshift a bit pricy but I had spent enough money on other oil that I should have had my own well.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 10:21 pm

Vikash, if you want a fix for your BRAKE light or unless you feel it's just a personality thing

, I had that when my clutch cable was horribly out of adjustment, but I forgot the turbos don't have Hill-Holders, so never mind that, you might be low on brake fluid, just enough for cold temps to affect it.

Josh, I was wondering about that very issue but every last person at Toyota says that they use 20W50 on their 100k-mile or more engines. But then again that's Toyota. I still have an oil leak somewhere, I think it might be rear main seal, since I've checked or replaced almost every other one. I might just go back to 10W30 because I feared the oil clearances would be too small for 20W50...

Al, that BG Synchroshift will be my absolute last resort. Otherwise, it's NewSubaruVille for me!!!

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:49 pm

Higher viscosity gear oil will probably make your synchro problem worse. Take it from me, I tried it. The deal is: higher viscosity is better lubrication for your bearings BUT lower viscosity is what lets your synchro's do their job easier.

Your synchro's DEPEND on friction to match speeds of the various transmission components. If you went with a higher viscosity, things would be so slippery in there that the synchros would have an even harder time meshing the gears properly.

As he said, stick with manufacturer's suggested viscosity.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:06 am

Yeah, there's no hill-holder, so the clutch and brake are completely separate. I figured the brake fluid may contract a little in the cold, but I looked at the master cylinder and the level was plenty above the lower line. I think the sensor's just a little flaky.

As for higher viscosity gear oil being worse for synchronization, that makes perfect sense, but... What's the explanation for my transmission synchronizing much better when cold than when hot? Do you think a previous owner may have put a thicker gear oil in than it's supposed to have?

How expensive is BG SynchroShift? Redline's usually around 7-8 bucks a quart, but to me it'd be worth much more if it actually made my car shift smoothly.

Post by **Legacy777** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:04 pm

vrg3,

Have you flushed your brake fluid recently?

If you have moisture in your fluid, it could be possible that it could cause the light to come on......just a thought.....

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:55 pm

vrg3 wrote: As for higher viscosity gear oil being worse for synchronization, that makes perfect sense, but... What's the explanation for my transmission synchronizing much better when cold than when hot? Do you think a previous owner may have put a thicker gear oil in than it's supposed to have?

Mine is better when cool than hot, just like yours, so I know it seems counterintuitive that lower viscosity gear oil would help the synchronizing. I assume that the difference between cold and hot behavior is caused by thermal expansion slightly changing the tolerances of various transmission parts - but I'm not sure.

Eventually, I went with Redline 75w90ns. I think it made things 50% better - which is worth it to me. The shifting seems more manageable now, but it is FAR from completely fixed so don't expect miracles from it.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:11 pm

I do plan to flush my brake fluid out, so we'll see if that helps. I got a set of stainless steel brake lines for Christmas which I haven't yet installed. I'm hoping to get a pair of WRX front brakes cheap and change my lines and brakes and flush the fluid all at once.

As for the shifting issue, I guess it could just be the thermal expansion of the transmission itself rather than gear oil. I think I'll see if I can get some BG SynchroShift and try it out. I'll probably put Redline or maybe just regular old dino oil in the rear differential though.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:20 am

Okay, guys. I have thought about it very hard, deciding whether to keep my car and fix the remaining bugaboos, or get a new car and be done with it...

I have decided to keep my car.

*throwing confetti* I made my decision driving down the highway coming home from school. As I felt the car's flawless engine ease me forward passing the riced-out Honda, I realized that I have far too many memories with this car, it is too much a part of me, and if it ever leaves my ownership, I will unashamedly cry. Even though I haven't had it 3 years yet, it has been the most prized possession of my life. Against all the suggestions of my family and friends, I know what I want, and I want to make this car the best it can be.

I will probably rebuild the transmission eventually, putting updated synchros in it (besides, it's probably my fault the tranny is in this condition anyway, I just recently broke the downshifting-every-time-I-slow-down habit). I will fix the leftover problems, which aren't really a big deal. The engine runs far too good for me to let the car go over insignificant little problems that plague every 12-year-old car.

Besides, if I got a new car, I would be spending as much money on a car that I don't have any emotional attachments to. And there have been a few months gone by that I have had to spend no money on this car at all. I wouldn't have that option with a new car.

I hope I never get this iffy again. If I post something to this effect again, all you guys have to do is put a link back to this post, and I will come to my senses.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:38 pm

YAY!

So, I might be passing through a junkyard this weekend if the weather's okay. They have a few BCs, I think... should I look for a power steering pump?

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:53 pm

I still got my junkyard PS pump layin around, waitin for the old one to crap out...

However, if you run across an alternator on one of those cars, I might take that and have it rewound...

Lemme know, vrg3, you got my email...

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:18 pm

Ditto for me on the alternator thing......

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:38 pm

So if I go (no promises!) I'll pick up a few alternators... Cool.

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:05 am

cool....thanks

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:15 am

Okay, the UPS guy dropped off my Redline oil today, so I will be changing it tomorrow...

Keep your fingers crossed for me, maybe I can prolong this tranny until I can rebuild it!

I'll report back with the results...

Edit: 4-4-03 1:00PM I changed the oil today, I put 2 quarts of Redline MT-90 in and 2 quarts of Redline 75W90NS. After a few miles of driving, I noticed the two oils seemed to start mixing together and...

IT WORKED!!

Well, it's not a 100% fix but it is a vast improvement. It drives about the same way it used to...

I am still driving with my new synchro-friendly style (pretty much avoiding downshifting, period), in hopes of maybe getting a few more years out of this tranny before a rebuild is inevitable.

Fear not, BC-BF boys and girls, subyluvr2212 is back in the game!!!

phailure · Post by **phailure** » Wed May 14, 2003 10:34 pm

Next time, try Redline Super light Shockproof tranny oil. I hear this is the best and will solve tranny problems related to oil. I have yet to see anyone complain about shockproof (ie no issues with synchros or anything). The only downside is that it is more expensive than the other stuff. If you dont want to spend alot of money, go for half shockproof and half 75w90. jus my 2c

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Grinding synchros...

Grinding synchros...

I have made my decision...