Ok, I just got back from the lawyers and I have to say it didn't go as good as I'd hoped. He said I have a case and should contest it but that it's my word against the off duty cops word and that unless the cop will reduce the ticket to something less, there's a fairly good chance that I could be found guilty. He said that the law is such that it doesn't matter what the circumstances were. If I was driving recklessly in the view of the cop then it's his word against mine. He said because of the circumstances that it is possible that I'll be found not guilty but that the courts will usually side with the cop. He also said that there's a good chance that the off duty cop was breaking the law but that nothing would come of that. I don't know, it's looking like I may be screwed!
-Matt
'92 SS 5mt. All go and no show. Sold :(
'94 Audi UrS4 Modded (new project)
'96 Outback 5mt.
'07 Legacy 2.5i SE
[quote="Redlined"]
Oh... and I hope the fucker get bunked with Gunter, arrested for raping Gorillas.[/quote]
If the cop doesn't lie in court then I think you may be ok. Obviously, I can't say for certain. I had a hearing in front of Carn this week and he seemed like a pretty nice guy to me. I had him raising his eyebrows a couple times. He never smirked or said anything that suggested he was against me from the start. I lost but only because I didn't appeal and it cost me nothing extra. If you do happen to lose there'e always appeals. If that lawyer can't do the trick then maybe you should try Pete Campana.
One thing I would suggest is that you have a positive attitude when you go into the hearing. Act confident and get your facts straight. It wouldn't hurt to look for precedent either. The high speed cop chase is a hot button right now. If the right people found out then it may aid your chances. There must be some kind of citizens action group in the state that could help with expenses. Don't let them convince you to kneel down.
Good luck, man, but they always take the douchebags' word.
You don't have to be a criminal to daydream of drive-bying cops. I know I do every time I see someone pulled over. Whenever I see them shot dead for pulling someone over in the news it puts a little smile on my face (just when they harrass motorists, sometimes they're actually doing something useful and don't deserve to get shot. Of course those aren't the morons they have pulling people over). I'll stop before I go on too much, but there's few things I hate more than an unfair fight.
Steve
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
I'm sorry, Matt. Some things about life, like this, suck.
I would try to get as many continuances as possible... A conviction would require both the witness and the arresting officer be present (unless the officer goes so far as to lie about not being there to see the incident).
It kind of depends on exactly how slimy these slimeballs are... If it's not too extreme they might actually get scared off a bit just by the possibility of a legal fight. I think discovery could be a big deal here.
Are you going to hire this lawyer to defend you? Is he going to actually try to fight the case?
If the lawyer is too expensive or isn't actually willing to try to fight the case properly, you might consider enlisting the aid of a paralegal for help filing forms and such.
I agree with Scott's advice about how to act in court. You really want to be seen as completely objective and in control. Like I said, work out all the emotion beforehand. Dress well (Western business attire) and keep a pad and pen handy at all times; take notes on everything that is said so you don't have to try to remember anything. And definitely take advantage of your right to appeal if the ruling doesn't go your way. In this courtroom you're likely to face the cop directly without a prosecuting attorney (Scott, tell me if I'm wrong about that), but the next time around there will actually be a prosecutor you can at least talk to.
Cops do believe themselves to be above ordinary people, and much of the legal system supports this hubris. It's a bigger crime to kill a police officer than to kill you or me. Any question that begins "Can a cop..." has an affirmative answer.
But don't think you don't have a chance. You are in the right, and you have to believe the legal system will pull through for you if you are to have a chance of making that happen. We're behind you.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
91 Pearl White Sport Sedan
04 Java Black Pearl Forester XT
2014 Volvo S60 T5
18 KTM 1290 Adventure S
87 Grey GL-10 Sedan (so long old buddy) - donated
97 Toyota 4Runner SR5 - sold
2002 BMW r1150rt-p - sold
2004 BMW r1200ST - sold
2016 BMW r1200RS - sold
I think I am going to hire the lawyer and yes he's willing to try and fight it. This is a smaller town though and it makes me wonder if these lawyers and cops are all friends. They have to all know each other from court cases and the like. My biggest thing is I just don't want to lose my license, everything else is secondary.
-Matt
'92 SS 5mt. All go and no show. Sold :(
'94 Audi UrS4 Modded (new project)
'96 Outback 5mt.
'07 Legacy 2.5i SE
[quote="Redlined"]
Oh... and I hope the fucker get bunked with Gunter, arrested for raping Gorillas.[/quote]
The ONLY way to make this go away (IMHO) is to find a lawyer who's connected to the judge or JP who will be presiding over the case. You can try other strategies, but it (using the other side of the budy system) is the only thing that WILL work. Whether we like it or not (and I think it stinks), the truth is that cops have enormous latitude. Case in point is that I was once chased by an off-duty cop WHO WAIVED A GUN AT ME. When I pulled over where a trooper was ticketing another motorist, the trooper cooled off the cop (they were not friends), sent me on my way, BUT HE LET THE OTHER COP GO!
The other thing you need to keep in mind about motor vehicle law is that it has different standards than for other (such as criminal) areas of law, and there may not be any real opportunity for appeal.
The one thing that can sometimes be of help (but only as a last resort) is to see if the cop who chased you has a record of complaints against him (in some places, such records must be public), because it is very unlikely that you are the first (or will be the last) victim of this as...le. IF (and only IF) you could get word to the right person (and you knew he had a record of complaints), you might get him to back down.
Best bet: Find a lawyer who REALLY knows the judge. Pay him BIG. Make it go away. It will hurt, but not as much as walking for six months.
Yeah, good move on the lawyer.... It seems like you have a chance. Thats definitely not the way it should work.
My uncle is a cop here in Florida and he has written another cop a ticket before (the guys at the station didn't like him very much for that)... I just wish that more cops could be like my uncle.
Good Luck!
Andrew
1990 Legacy LS Sedan FWD NA MT
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Cops spend their time fucking with motorists because they are to busy grabbing for a fallen donut to drive like an average human being. They flip bitches in the middle of the street, hit their lights to run red-lights. Speed everywhere for no reason, with their lights off.
Meanwhile, murders go unsolved, and REAL criminals go unprosecuted. Instead, they chase down innocent civilians because they feel they drive with the flow of traffic.
Fuck that.
I appreciate the REAL cops out there. The ones who actually DO care about the best interest of public saftey, and the cops that ARENT going to pull you over for speeding when you are the only one on the road. I appreciate the cops who put their lives on the line to help their community. I don't appreciate the cops who go out of their way to fuck someones day. The ones who, at the end of the day, walk away with everyone thinking that they are total fucking dicks.
Fight this to the end Matt. They think they can bend over every citizen and "service the community" whenever they want. Fuck that, it's not right. And it's unfortunate that no one can do anything about it.
In the words of Rage Against The Machine:
"Fuck that shit cuz I'm on the run, from a plump motherfucker with a badge and a gun."
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
The ONLY way to make this go away (IMHO) is to find a lawyer who's connected to the judge or JP who will be presiding over the case. You can try other strategies, but it (using the other side of the budy system) is the only thing that WILL work. Whether we like it or not (and I think it stinks), the truth is that cops have enormous latitude.
Well the lawyer that I was going to hire is fairly young but he's partnered with one of the top local lawyers. I wanted the other guy but he won't take any new clients right now. Besides that, I really don't know who would fit that discription. I'm not from here and don't know that many people here either.
Case in point is that I was once chased by an off-duty cop WHO WAIVED A GUN AT ME. When I pulled over where a trooper was ticketing another motorist, the trooper cooled off the cop (they were not friends), sent me on my way, BUT HE LET THE OTHER COP GO!
That's scary and ridiculous.
The other thing you need to keep in mind about motor vehicle law is that it has different standards than for other (such as criminal) areas of law, and there may not be any real opportunity for appeal.
No, I can definitely appeal here in PA, I already looked into that.
The one thing that can sometimes be of help (but only as a last resort) is to see if the cop who chased you has a record of complaints against him (in some places, such records must be public), because it is very unlikely that you are the first (or will be the last) victim of this as...le. IF (and only IF) you could get word to the right person (and you knew he had a record of complaints), you might get him to back down.
Ya, if it goes to court (which it most likely will) I'm going to have my lawyer look into that.
Best bet: Find a lawyer who REALLY knows the judge. Pay him BIG. Make it go away. It will hurt, but not as much as walking for six months.
Keep us posted.
Ya, I'd like to, I just don't know how to find that out. I also don't have BIG money available to get a high end lawyer either. Maybe I should start a charity defense fund. "Save Matt from the man, ya, that's the plan".
-Matt
'92 SS 5mt. All go and no show. Sold :(
'94 Audi UrS4 Modded (new project)
'96 Outback 5mt.
'07 Legacy 2.5i SE
[quote="Redlined"]
Oh... and I hope the fucker get bunked with Gunter, arrested for raping Gorillas.[/quote]
BAC5.2 wrote:
I appreciate the REAL cops out there. The ones who actually DO care about the best interest of public saftey, and the cops that ARENT going to pull you over for speeding when you are the only one on the road. I appreciate the cops who put their lives on the line to help their community. I don't appreciate the cops who go out of their way to fuck someones day. The ones who, at the end of the day, walk away with everyone thinking that they are total fucking dicks.
Ya, I appreciate the good cops out there but it seems that most of them have ego problems and power trips. Most of them must have really little dicks or got beat up a lot as children. Case in point, the guy that chased me looked HUGE, I mean Arnold Schwartenagger huge. WHen he got out of his car though he was about 5'6", no shit. I almost laughed out loud when I saw him. He thought he was pretty big shit too. He had a bad case of little man complex.
My step brother that's the same age as me is a cop out in southern Oregon and he definitely has little man complex. I used to beat the hell out of him all the time and he was picked on a lot in school. He also always had an unhealthy fascination with war and guns too. It scares me that he's now an officer of the law.
Fight this to the end Matt. They think they can bend over every citizen and "service the community" whenever they want. Fuck that, it's not right. And it's unfortunate that no one can do anything about it.
I'm really going to try. I'm just worried I won't have the funds to sustain a long fight. If I was rich I'd probably be able to just but my way out of it, I'd get Joe Cockren or some shit, I mean hey, he got OJ off.
In the words of Rage Against The Machine:
"Fuck that shit cuz I'm on the run, from a plump motherfucker with a badge and a gun."
......... Too true
-Matt
'92 SS 5mt. All go and no show. Sold :(
'94 Audi UrS4 Modded (new project)
'96 Outback 5mt.
'07 Legacy 2.5i SE
[quote="Redlined"]
Oh... and I hope the fucker get bunked with Gunter, arrested for raping Gorillas.[/quote]
Fuck that shit, cuz I ain't tha one,
For a punk mutha fucka with a badge and a gun,
To be beatin on, and throwin in jail.
On another note, I was hanging out with a few people the other night. They told a story:
4/20/04 Out smoking enough pot to kill a south african village. They get pulled over, spray the axe, driver gets a ticket for a dim taillight.
Cop is walking away, one guy gets out of the car, sneaks up on the cop (ninja walk style, you'd laugh at him if you saw him do it) and KICKS HIM IN THE ASS! RIGHT IN THE ASS!
Cop didn't even turn around, just got in the car and went on his way.
What they THINK happened was that the guy missed, and didn't even see/hear the guy sneek up on him. He kicked as a car went by, so that covers the wind noise.
Even still, how righteous would it be to haul off and kick a cop in the ass? Funny as shit, I tell you what.
I bet the cop watched the in-car-video and was like "wtf?"
Cop A (the off-duty guy) decides to play Johny Vigilante, chases you around the highway network (no doubt, exceeding the speed limit), yelling and screaming at every chance he gets (just to make absolutely certain that you will NOT repond in any passive way), while calling his buddies for help.
Once you stop, he tells his story (the "I just saved the world from Ronny Rice Rocket version) to his buddy (buddies, plural, once the others show) and Cop B writes you up (without ever making any pretense of actually trying to figure out what really happened).
Cop A has a problem, becuase he could have (if he really thought you were an impending menace) called dispatch on his cell phone, while staying several car lengths back from you, and simply routed a unifrom officer to your location. By staying well behind you, he would not be at risk of provoking any extreme behaviour on your part. If, when the uniform arrived and could observe, you were breaking the law, then you could be ticketed by the uniformed officer based on what the uniformed officer could actually observe.
Cop B has a problem, too. He wrote out a ticket and charged you with something that he did not, and could not, witness (the ticket is like any other legal document, and issuing a false complaint is a serious legal matter).
SO...
Return the ticket promptly. Indicate (if there is a check box) that you want all supporting documentation from the complaining officer. Also, send in a letter with the ticket, re-stating that you intend to plead not guilty, and that you will need a) a complete statement from the complaining officer, b) the logs of the police dispatch, covering 1/2 hour before and 1/2 hour after the time the ticket was issued, c) the phone logs for the police dispatch, covering the time of the incident, and d) any documents, filed by the complaining officer or other officers who responded to the scene, included their "watch" notes, relating to this matter. Explain to the judge (or justice) that you need to obtain these documents and records so that you may adequately prepare for your defense. DO NOT EXPLAIN YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY.
If the cops (and the judge) have any sense, they will get rid of the whole thing, just as soon as they can. If not, it will be a first step toward your getting even.
Try it. It's cheap, and you just might get them to see that you don't intend to bend over for them. Would make a nice story, too, for some local news person looking for an angle.
Just to be clear, asking for that documentation is called a request for discovery... from what I understand, it goes to the prosecution, not to the judge. A motion for discovery is a stronger statement that goes to the judge (basically asking for forced discovery), but shouldn't be necessary.
Realize that officers cite people for offenses to which only third parties bore witness all the time. The first time I was ever in a collision while driving, I told the officer that the other guy had slammed into me while exiting a gas station without looking, and the officer wrote him a ticket. When the guy contested the ticket, I had to go to court to testify against him; the ticket was still valid.
Matt, if all you care about is not losing your license, maybe you should ask your attorney if you could short-circuit a lot of pain and trouble and just plea bargain. In Virginia, many people cited for reckless driving have their charges reduced to "improper driving" in court, which is a very minor offense. Pennsylvania appears to have something called "careless driving" which might be similar. It'd suck to not even have the chance to try to make this right, but in life you do have to choose your battles.
Anyway, it's probably better to stop taking legal advice from us and instead take it from your attorney. If he's worth his salt he's probably already drafted up the request for discovery, and is prepared to file a motion with the court if the prosecution doesn't respond in a timely manner. Hopefully he's also discussed the possiblity of a plea bargain with you, or will soon.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
He had discussed the plea bargain with me but he didn't say anything about the request for discovery. I'm starting to wonder if I should even retain this guys services. He seemed willing to go to trial with it but he wasn't very informative about what our strategy would be or how he could get me off. His whole demeanor was slightly negative like he didn't think I had a real good chance if the cop's want to push it all the way to trial. He didn't act like he was going to do a lot of background work either. It was only a consiltation though so I haven't committed to retaining him yet. Maybe once I do he would get more into these subjects. I guess I should talk to him again and bring up these issues before hiring him.
Jeff- I already sent in my 'not guilty' plea so I don't have it to write notes or include letters when sending it. What do you think I should do? Should I just send a letter to the same place I sent the not guilty plea? Should I call the lawyer and discuss these issues and have him do it? It sucks because of my current work situation I'm in MD Mon-Thur so I don't have a lot of time to schedule appointment or anything.
-Matt
'92 SS 5mt. All go and no show. Sold :(
'94 Audi UrS4 Modded (new project)
'96 Outback 5mt.
'07 Legacy 2.5i SE
[quote="Redlined"]
Oh... and I hope the fucker get bunked with Gunter, arrested for raping Gorillas.[/quote]
Phil - those lyrics are originally from NWA's F* the Police. That's Ice Cube's part, I believe.
Steve
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
Did he charge you a fee for the initial consultation? It might actually be worth shopping around a little for a lawyer. It's the job of an attorney to represent you and to work your case how you want it, and if you're not sure he'll do it well then you're right to be somewhat reluctant.
I would have expected him to focus on the plea bargain, myself... that's all most traffic court lawyers ever do.
If you are hiring a lawyer, you shouldn't do any more stuff yourself; your lawyer should be in charge of filing all the forms and sending out all the correspondence; he knows where they go, who gets copies, and how to keep records. If you're not hiring a lawyer, you might still consider hiring a paralegal just to make sure you do all this stuff the right way.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
I did have to pay a consultation fee. That's part of the problem. I don't have the money to shop around and keep paying guys to have consultations until I find one that strikes me as enthusiastic about defending me. He did focus on plea bargain.
-Matt
'92 SS 5mt. All go and no show. Sold :(
'94 Audi UrS4 Modded (new project)
'96 Outback 5mt.
'07 Legacy 2.5i SE
[quote="Redlined"]
Oh... and I hope the fucker get bunked with Gunter, arrested for raping Gorillas.[/quote]
You need a traffic court lawyer. Find one that specializes in traffic court. First thing. If there is no one listed as such, try talking to some of the court workers... they might not be able to recommend a lawyer, but they should tell you who handles a lot of traffic cases. Regular lawyers don't care about traffic cases, that is small fries to them.
Have you taken this to the media yet? Why should one citizen be allowed to blatently break the law to get another citizen a ticket for a judgement decision? The fact that the guy is an off-duty officer shouldn't even matter! If you tell the whole story, including the bull crap about them going through the book (with the citizen aka off-duty cop) and making it like a wish list "ahhh, no that won't stick..." It's obvious that this mess should disappear. But I hope all goes well. If you didn't live so dang far away I'd drive out and give you some support.
Off Topic: This actually happened to me before. An off-duty cop in a yellow Mustang :big rolley eyes here: followed us to where we were going. He pulls up cussing and yellowing showing his badge. My friend went over to talk to him and blew him off. If I had known he was an off-duty that chased us like a duke-of-hazard... I would have went over and got his badge number, said thank you and filed a complaint against him. In fact, this is what you should do!!! There is a certain type of complaint that if filed stays on their record permanently (can you say questions for them everytime they want to go up a rank or get a raise or review?).
If you haven't already tried, you may be able to contact the Pennsylvania Bar Association and ask them to refer you to a traffic court lawyer near you; most bar associations provide that service for free.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
I'm glad there's people here like William, Vikash, and others who are little more level headed than me with suggestions (mostly all I do is spout off as my dinosaur brain locks into violence mode). This is all good advice and since this could happen to any of us I wonder if we should almost make a sticky about this sort of thing.
Steve
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
to continue on what steve said and reiterate my pervious point. The officer that actually gave you the ticket, cannot legally do that (least not here in cali, dunno about penn) It is considered heresay. If it does go down as a real ticket though, I say you start failing about heresay and say he waved his gun at you, or something.
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I'm on First and First. How can the same street intersect with itself? I must be at the nexus of the universe.
My step brother that's the same age as me is a cop out in southern Oregon and he definitely has little man complex. I used to beat the hell out of him all the time and he was picked on a lot in school. He also always had an unhealthy fascination with war and guns too. It scares me that he's now an officer of the law
There's a LOT of local policemen out there that are of this ilk. Mostly, it's the town cops (like the one you had an issue with) that are like this. For example, there's height and other requirements to be a statey. Those guys (short ones, dumb ones, emotional ones etc.) don't have what it takes to be a statey so they fall into some town job where they take their frustrations out on people like you and me. During the time when I was growing up and my mother was a Police Communications Officer I learned that there's a lot of staties that have a genuine concern for people. They are bound to the letter of the law though. The lawmakers make the laws that are unfair so keep that in mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a police lover or anything.
In your hearing you may have an attorney present obviously and so may the state although it's unlikely they will have one there due to the nature of the charge. The state isn't going to bring the DA in on a traffic charge. I could be wrong there buy I HIGHLY doubt it.
Last edited by Tleg93 on Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sounds like you got pullled over by Farva from Super Troopers
91 Pearl White Sport Sedan
04 Java Black Pearl Forester XT
2014 Volvo S60 T5
18 KTM 1290 Adventure S
87 Grey GL-10 Sedan (so long old buddy) - donated
97 Toyota 4Runner SR5 - sold
2002 BMW r1150rt-p - sold
2004 BMW r1200ST - sold
2016 BMW r1200RS - sold
He said I have a case and should contest it but that it's my word against the off duty cops word and that unless the cop will reduce the ticket to something less, there's a fairly good chance that I could be found guilty. 
He said that the law is such that it doesn't matter what the circumstances were. If I was driving recklessly in the view of the cop then it's his word against mine. He said because of the circumstances that it is possible that I'll be found not guilty but that the courts will usually side with the cop. He also said that there's a good chance that the off duty cop was breaking the law but that nothing would come of that. I don't know, it's looking like I may be screwed! 
