Engine wont turn over

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:42 pm

I just did the timing belt on my friends legacy and now it wont start. Im going to take it apart again and see whats goin on. I made sure all the marks lined up and put everything back and it wont start. I have a vid of me tring to start it, if it helps at all.

http://www.dtpcarclub.com/videos/legacy.wmv

94L_wagon · Post by **94L_wagon** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:23 pm

Before you go ripping it all apart, did you make sure that the plugs are firing when you ground a plug wire against the chassis? Maybe you unplugged the igniter and forgot to put it back or something?

Also maybe you can see if there are any CEL codes stored?

I would be do some debugging like this while its all together and you can play around with things. Once its apart again, there is not much you can do except look at it, so unless the belt is really off, or really loose and slipping, its going to be hard to tell what is going on.

One other thing I'd do before ripping it all apart, you can pull off the side timing belt covers, verify the cam sprocket positions with the crank pully at TDC, and check there is tension on the belt.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out!

Dave (who did his first Legacy timing belt job twice!)

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:16 pm

I have spark. Ill check for stored codes later.

How do I know where TDC is with the timing cover on. I took off the side covers and the belt tension seems ok.

94L_wagon · Post by **94L_wagon** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:15 pm

There should be a notch in the accessory pulley - when thats lined up with the 0 mark on the timing protracter the engine is at TDC. At that point, the timing marks on the camshafts should be roughly aligned with the notches in the rear timing belt covers too.

Even if the belt is off a tooth or two I think the engine should still run. If you have spark, then the ECU must be getting enough signals from the sensors too, so if you can verify the timing is not miles off, then I would check for fuel pressure next.

Any chance you have knocked a vacuum hose off?

Good luck,
Dave

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:50 am

WHERE IS THE RADIATOR?

you're going to cause major damage to the car trying to start it with NO coolant in it at all. In fact I do believe this might be related to the coolant temp switch.

morgie · Post by **morgie** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:57 am

exact.. first :

REINSTALL THE RADIATOR AND FILL IT UP QUICK !!!

this one was funny

douglas vincent · Post by **douglas vincent** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:31 am

Personally I dont worry that much about filling the radiator up right away on a test start up. Everytime I have drained the engine completely and then filled the radiator up, it takes like 20 minutes of idling before the thermostat heats up enough to open and circulate. You can just hold the lower hose and feel the cold until that thermostat opens up.

mTk · Post by **mTk** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:32 am

Starting the motor with no coolant will not hurt it as long as you only leave it on long enough to see if it is going to start.

MK

morgie · Post by **morgie** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:49 pm

hummm i was thinking that no water in the engine could have prevent it to start (a protection of some kind) ..

but i remember that when i replaced my timing belt, i actually started the engine once the coolant drained to lift the car on ramps .. so that might not be your problem :\

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:18 pm

I went to put everything on and I was filling it with coolant( I saved it from b4) and somehw something got into the coolant, looked like a little plastic clip or something. I stoped and drained the coolant to try to get it out and no luck. So I went to flush it out with some water from the hose still no luck but I did find out that the waterpump is leaking. With the water pump gaskets are they a one time use deal, like crush washers? I torqued it to specs in the counterclockwise patern and it still leaks. I guess I get to rip everythig apart again anyways.

mTk · Post by **mTk** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:30 pm

I bit of gasket maker on the water pump insures no leaks (even with reused gaskets), has worked for me every time.

MK

WRXdan · Post by **WRXdan** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:46 pm

simpreza2 wrote:I went to put everything on and I was filling it with coolant( I saved it from b4) and somehw something got into the coolant, looked like a little plastic clip or something. I stoped and drained the coolant to try to get it out and no luck. So I went to flush it out with some water from the hose still no luck but I did find out that the waterpump is leaking. With the water pump gaskets are they a one time use deal, like crush washers? I torqued it to specs in the counterclockwise patern and it still leaks. I guess I get to rip everythig apart again anyways.

Did you replace the rubber oring under the pump as well? Those things sometimes don't bounce back after being used the first time.

Oppps...maybe the NA pump is different.

J-MoNeY · Post by **J-MoNeY** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:36 pm

Sounds to me like you have the timing marks lined up wrong.

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:48 pm

Ok I fixed the waterpump but the car still wont start. I lined up all the marks, as can be seen in the pics below. I counted 44 teeth on the left anf 41 on the right. I also checked every wire for spark and they are all ok. I just recently (about a month ago) replaced the plugs and fuel filter too.

mTk · Post by **mTk** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:54 pm

iirc it's the notch on one of the tabs on the crank sprocket, not the arrow

MK

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:02 pm

yup.....you're lining it up wrong.

Crank gear is off. Should be lined up with the mark on the tab...not the gear.

You can sort of see it in this pic
http://main.experiencetherave.com:8080/ ... P_2728.JPG

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:14 pm

mTk wrote:iirc it's the notch on one of the tabs on the crank sprocket, not the arrow

MK

I think your right. I couldnt even see the other mark unless I knew to look for it, it was covered with oil and crap. Ill let ya know how it goes in a few.

mTk · Post by **mTk** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:19 pm

Excellent, hope that does it for you.

MK

professor · Post by **professor** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:57 pm

too late now, but on non-interference engines a simple check is to make sure you have proper compression when turning the engine over. Misalignment of the crank and cam will mean no or possibly very low compression only on all cylinders, same as a broken belt. I had the same problem on a BMW 2002 I picked up cheap, the previous guy had aligned the timing chain to an extraneous mark, causing no start but luckily not ventilating the pistons; he dumped the car cheap cuz he thought the valves were gone.

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:23 pm

I got it to start but its a rough idle. I think I might be one tooth off. Thanks everyone for the help

...now to get it to run smoothly

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:25 pm

professor wrote: on non-interference engines a simple check is to make sure you have proper compression when turning the engine over. Misalignment of the crank and cam will mean no or possibly very low compression only on all cylinders, same as a broken belt.

Thats an awesome tip, Thanks.

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:26 am

I think I spoke too soon

I realigned the timing blet for the 5th time, 2nd time the correct way

and I counted the teeth and everything was exact and now it wont start again. It sounds like it will almost catch and start but it won't. Im getting another vid, Ill have it up in a few.

EDIT: Here is the vids. The 1st is with giving it some gas and the 2nd is without gas.

http://www.dtpcarclub.com/videos/legacy2.wmv

http://www.dtpcarclub.com/videos/legacy3.wmv

professor · Post by **professor** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:34 am

odds are its flooded and your plugs are fouled as well. remove the plugs and clean the oil and carbon off...the mis-timed treatment will foul them badly. Let the cylinders breathe a bit and remove the air filter to let extra gas flash off. if the plugs aren't like-new now would be the time for new ones. install plugs and try to start it with the aid of starting fluid if necessary...

remember, the engine computer was going crazy trying to compensate for the bad timing...does a subaru computer remember??? and would it help to "re-set" to default settings? excuse the ignorance this works with some cars not sure with Subaru.

change the oil once you get it going, you may have significant gasoline dilution

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:11 am

i thout it was supposed to be lik 44 on one side and 40.5 on the other, or 44.5 on one side and 40 on the other. I dunno, but I don't think you're lined up right still. triple check it again, see if this helps you any: http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/engine/FtC ... aceW01.pdf

simpreza2 · Post by **simpreza2** » Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:17 pm

professor wrote:odds are its flooded and your plugs are fouled as well. remove the plugs and clean the oil and carbon off...the mis-timed treatment will foul them badly. Let the cylinders breathe a bit and remove the air filter to let extra gas flash off. if the plugs aren't like-new now would be the time for new ones. install plugs and try to start it with the aid of starting fluid if necessary...

I changed the plugs and It started right up. The engine was bouncing around for the first few seconds but it smoothed out and is purring like a kitten now. Thanks everyone!

On another note I was driving the car around the driveway and it was blowing a small amount of blue smoke. I know its buring oil but it wasnt b4 I did the timing belt, cam, and crank seal. But Ill make a new thread for it.

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