Blinders

[THAWA]

I wrote this in Notepad and then cut and pasted, to save as I go so if something happens I won't lose a whole novel

I'm going to toss out these arguments: reliability, speed (acceleration/lap times/anything), gas mileage, etc. These arguments are no longer valid, because the automatic is just as reliable, just as fast pretty much, and gets just as good of gas mileage.

It really all comes down to preference. Plain and simple.

I don't know about you guys, but I could give a rat's ass about my E.T., lap time, lateral g's, 0-60, etc. etc. I drive my car to enjoy it. I enjoy the fundamental concept of driving a car. It frees me, it makes me feel good about myself, it takes everything off my mind, it makes me happy to be alive.

I don't wear blinders; I've driven all kinds of automatics in the course of my life: two BMW's (a 525i and a Z4), a 92 Mitsu 3000GT, numerous Toyotas of course (from the Celica to the 4Runner), an 03 Subaru Legacy Wagon, and these were just the cars I've driven with some lead in my foot. In fact, I'd go to say that I've probably driven more autos in my life than manuals. I'm no expert at driving an automatic in a racing style, I can't left-foot brake for shit. But the reason is that I have no desire to learn.

The fact of the matter is, I don't enjoy driving an automatic. No matter how many ways there are to shift the gears manually, I still don't enjoy it. My grandmother's Z4 is quite entertaining to drive, but the only thing I wish is that it was a manual. It's not the same bumping the gearshift up or down to make it shift.

You still don't have the control you do with a manual. You can't control what an automatic clutch (TC) does, it operates on its own. The only way you can make it seem like you're disengaging the clutch is to put it in Neutral, and that affords you no benefits while you're driving. Yes I do recall ciper mentioning he could possibly rig up a clutch pedal to control ATF pressure in the TC or something like that, making it possible to "disengage" the TC while you're changing gears or whatever. But if you're going to do all that, just get a freekin manual! This would be like getting a male breeding dog, castrating it, and then trying to get it to reproduce. Just leave the balls on the damn dog!

Driving a manual makes you feel accomplished, like you're an advanced human being, if you ask me. Driving a manual RIGHT makes you feel even better. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to come on here and post a whole thread about nothing more than this perfect 3-2 rev-matched, heel-toed downshift I nailed on the way home. There's nothing rational about it, there's no mathematical explanation that states that I exited the corner with 1.257 more mph of speed, it's just something that's so fundamentally enjoyable that I couldn't possibly see myself driving a car in which I couldn't do it.

If you offered me an automatic Porsche 911 Turbo in trade for my manual Legacy, I'd tell you to go screw yourself. I don't care how much faster it is, I don't care how much pussy I would get by taking it to some ritzy club every Saturday night, I don't care how much more it's worth. I wouldn't enjoy driving it. And I don't see the point of owning a car like that unless I enjoy driving it.

I've talked to the most die-hard car people who, though they drive manual, would possibly consider an automatic, or at least a paddle-shifter car. I stand my ground and insist that as long as I'm driving, I will be shifting gears myself. This is a statement which anyone of you can hold me to for the rest of my life: If there is ever a point where I will be required to drive an automatic for my everyday car, I will turn in my license and take the bus. That's how strongly I feel about it.

You do realize your "I don't wear blinders" comment kind goes out the window if you reread your statements right? But thank you this is exactly what I wanted to hear.

[THAWA]

Of course we can't do a direct comparison, Hardy. . . I was just making a point that there are quirks about each kind of transmission that make one more desireable than the other. . . depending on the driving style and how well the driver can manipulate the mechanics.

The DCCD in each case was biased slightly to the rear for the autocross runs. However, almost every other time throttle-off oversteer wrecked an STi, the DCCD was set to auto. I'm not saying that my setup didn't cause oversteer on the track. . . it does help. . . but it's certainly NOT necessary with this car in order to achieve the same effect, just easier.

well yeah, but im now curious, when did it start to oversteer? Before the turn, during the turn, or after the turn?

[Yukonart]

well yeah, but im now curious, when did it start to oversteer? Before the turn, during the turn, or after the turn?

During the turn, for the most part. However, if weight transfer is still occuring just before entering the turn, the back end WILL rotate more than usual. Very beneifical, especially for cars that are still FWD-biased.

[BAC5.2]

It's still not a syncromesh which is what the majority of road cars have, so my point is still quite valid. I dont pretend to understand NASCAR and I'll gladly wear blinders to keep nascar out of my vision, so anything related to it is quite stupid to me personally. Why would you need to change the ATF after so few miles? Even when the temp of it is twice as much as the operating temp it's life expectancy is still more than 10k miles and I'm damn sure there aren't races that long. But in what situation would you drive a car where you'd let an element of it go unchecked and basically kill itself? Especially if it were an investment.

And it's not a full auto, which is what the majority of road cars use, so your point there, is moot.

500 laps at 200mph, would put a hurtin on an auto. It's similar to brakes, once you boil the fluid (which is not hard to do), it's never the same. It doesn't have to completely break down, it just has to boil. After that, nothing is the same again. It'll last 10k, but it won't perform well for 10k. You could, in theory, never change your brake fluid. But as soon as you do, all the sudden, your brakes work better. See how that works?

Before sequential boxes, what did WRC use? Mark Lovell ditched a sequential box in favor of a JDM non-DCCD 6-speed for a while. I've got a video of him driving on the 6-speed as well. He drives it AMAZINGLY well, an auto could NEVER do that.

explain why you cant downshift more than one gear to the correct gear for the speed? On a related note, but not the same idea, you might not need to go from 4th to 2nd, but in most cases where you're in that situation on a 5 speed box you'd be in 3rd on a 4 speed box

You can downshift more than one gear to the correct gear for the speed. But you've gotta go down sequentially. I can go 4th gear right to 2nd. You've gotta go from 4th, to 3rd, to 2nd. Most cases isn't all cases. Manual ratios aren't as wide, so you can choose an optimum ratio for what the needs are. Back when I had the auto, I was always between 2nd and 3rd on the backroads to school. I drove the 94 down the same roads a few weeks ago and I was in 3rd, pretty much the whole time.

Again this goes back to the mash the gas theory. I'm sure if you just mashed the gas at 25 mph in 2nd gear it would be smooth right? Why would you want to do this in an automatic? If you're sitting in 2 in an auto and mash the gas you wont be smooth and you're right it'll downshift, but if you knew how do drive a car, auto or manual, you'd know you shouldn't mash the gas like that to be smooth. If you knew how to drive an auto you'd know you can go WOT and still be in the same gear without the trans downshifting. So this is a moot arguement. Personally I drive a 5mt like shit, there's times when I'm smooth as silk but more often than not you'd think it was my first day of driving. I can admit that, and I can totally see how someone could drive one like a king, but obviously noone here can see the reverse.

If I am going 25mph in 2nd gear, and I mash it, it'll launch ahead, not smooth and slow, but smoothly enough. I can also give it as much gas as necessary without the worry of the transmission dowshifting. Even from 0% throttle input to 100% throttle input in 2nd, it'll jerk a hell of a lot less than the downshift to 1st. The key is, I can get into it earlier and faster without worry of the computer trying to anticipate the conditions. I don't have to roll into it until i'm going to fast to downshift to 3rd, I can feed it throttle, then burry the gas as necessary.

I didnt bring that up because I wasnt trying to point out flaws, My intention was to find out why people wear blinders about transmission choices. There's some points you've failed to address aswell. That being said, would you take your car out to a road track with a radiator a quarter the size of your current one, or without one completely? Of course not, it'd overheat, so why do you think someone who was serious would drive an auto hard without having it cooled well?

I wasn't speaking solely of track usage. People overdrive their autos on the street all of the time.

And this is what these types of discussions always come down to, opinion rather than fact. I find it more fun to drive quicker and better than people using an auto, so now that point is moot.

But when it boils down ever further, an auto isn't going to offer the same level of control that a manual will. Manuals offer more versatility, with less risk of failure.

You may find it more fun to drive quicker and better than most people in your auto. But when the person driving the stick is outdriving you in the auto, is it as fun?

I'm not saying I'm the best manual driver in the world, but when it comes to turns I can hold my own. I'm sure someone driving an auto could out drive me, and I'm sure there is someone out there driving a manual that could out drive them.

100% of WHY people drive their respective transmissions, is all preference. But I'll tell you one thing, an auto just doesn't cut it for me. Talk numbers and factoids all you want, I'd rather have a manual any day of the week. I enjoy the extra versatility and road feel and control that a manual offers.

If an auto works great for you, that's cool. It's not my bag. And like I said before, if you have to ask why, you'll never know.

[BAC5.2]

Lift-throttle-oversteer can be accomplished in just about every subaru powerful enough to get out of it's own way. It's a sudden weight upset from rear bias (on throttle) to front bias (off throttle). It's not a deficiency, it's a quirk. An auto is mushy enough to, pretty much, not allow it (or at least not allow you to power slide out of it).

You can lift off the throttle and oversteer in about anything. An auto usually won't allow you to powerslide it out.

[entirelyturbo]

And like I said before, if you have to ask why, you'll never know.

Succinct and meaningful...

[THAWA]

It's still not a syncromesh which is what the majority of road cars have, so my point is still quite valid. I dont pretend to understand NASCAR and I'll gladly wear blinders to keep nascar out of my vision, so anything related to it is quite stupid to me personally. Why would you need to change the ATF after so few miles? Even when the temp of it is twice as much as the operating temp it's life expectancy is still more than 10k miles and I'm damn sure there aren't races that long. But in what situation would you drive a car where you'd let an element of it go unchecked and basically kill itself? Especially if it were an investment.

And it's not a full auto, which is what the majority of road cars use, so your point there, is moot.

so why bring it up in the first place?

500 laps at 200mph, would put a hurtin on an auto. It's similar to brakes, once you boil the fluid (which is not hard to do), it's never the same. It doesn't have to completely break down, it just has to boil. After that, nothing is the same again. It'll last 10k, but it won't perform well for 10k. You could, in theory, never change your brake fluid. But as soon as you do, all the sudden, your brakes work better. See how that works?

500 laps at 200 mph would put a hurting on anything, period.

explain why you cant downshift more than one gear to the correct gear for the speed? On a related note, but not the same idea, you might not need to go from 4th to 2nd, but in most cases where you're in that situation on a 5 speed box you'd be in 3rd on a 4 speed box

You can downshift more than one gear to the correct gear for the speed. But you've gotta go down sequentially. I can go 4th gear right to 2nd. You've gotta go from 4th, to 3rd, to 2nd. Most cases isn't all cases. Manual ratios aren't as wide, so you can choose an optimum ratio for what the needs are. Back when I had the auto, I was always between 2nd and 3rd on the backroads to school. I drove the 94 down the same roads a few weeks ago and I was in 3rd, pretty much the whole time.

I could go from 4th to 2nd quite frequently without stopping in 3rd so your speculation is false. Correct me if I'm wrong but your auto was an NA car not making as much power as you are now and with a different power band. Is it not at all possible that this setup could affect what gear you'd have to be? A better comparison would be two identical cars except for transmission, not two different cars.

Again this goes back to the mash the gas theory. I'm sure if you just mashed the gas at 25 mph in 2nd gear it would be smooth right? Why would you want to do this in an automatic? If you're sitting in 2 in an auto and mash the gas you wont be smooth and you're right it'll downshift, but if you knew how do drive a car, auto or manual, you'd know you shouldn't mash the gas like that to be smooth. If you knew how to drive an auto you'd know you can go WOT and still be in the same gear without the trans downshifting. So this is a moot arguement. Personally I drive a 5mt like shit, there's times when I'm smooth as silk but more often than not you'd think it was my first day of driving. I can admit that, and I can totally see how someone could drive one like a king, but obviously noone here can see the reverse.

If I am going 25mph in 2nd gear, and I mash it, it'll launch ahead, not smooth and slow, but smoothly enough. I can also give it as much gas as necessary without the worry of the transmission dowshifting. Even from 0% throttle input to 100% throttle input in 2nd, it'll jerk a hell of a lot less than the downshift to 1st. The key is, I can get into it earlier and faster without worry of the computer trying to anticipate the conditions. I don't have to roll into it until i'm going to fast to downshift to 3rd, I can feed it throttle, then burry the gas as necessary.

It's not a matter of the speed you're going that makes it downshift that's just one of the conditions, it's the amount of throttle you use. If you can't control that you can't make this arguement. Or if you dont know how to control the 4eat you can't make that arguement either. If you really didnt want to care about smoothness and wanted to do a 2nd gear run you would put the selector in 2 and press the manual button, viola, no 1st gear no matter how hard to punch it. So as I said before, MOOT arguement

I didnt bring that up because I wasnt trying to point out flaws, My intention was to find out why people wear blinders about transmission choices. There's some points you've failed to address aswell. That being said, would you take your car out to a road track with a radiator a quarter the size of your current one, or without one completely? Of course not, it'd overheat, so why do you think someone who was serious would drive an auto hard without having it cooled well?

I wasn't speaking solely of track usage. People overdrive their autos on the street all of the time.

Just because people do it doesn't make it the correct way to do it. People put CAI's on cars all the time, they run 14 psi on a vf11 , They put bosch plat +4 plugs in, they do all kinds of things, but it doesnt make it te correct way, driving an auto harsh without any safeguards is just as wrong.

And this is what these types of discussions always come down to, opinion rather than fact. I find it more fun to drive quicker and better than people using an auto, so now that point is moot.

But when it boils down ever further, an auto isn't going to offer the same level of control that a manual will. Manuals offer more versatility, with less risk of failure.

You may find it more fun to drive quicker and better than most people in your auto. But when the person driving the stick is outdriving you in the auto, is it as fun?

I'm not saying I'm the best manual driver in the world, but when it comes to turns I can hold my own. I'm sure someone driving an auto could out drive me, and I'm sure there is someone out there driving a manual that could out drive them.

100% of WHY people drive their respective transmissions, is all preference. But I'll tell you one thing, an auto just doesn't cut it for me. Talk numbers and factoids all you want, I'd rather have a manual any day of the week. I enjoy the extra versatility and road feel and control that a manual offers.

If an auto works great for you, that's cool. It's not my bag. And like I said before, if you have to ask why, you'll never know.

For the record, every form of control you've shown me has be reproduced by myself with a 4eat. Anyway, This is what I wanted to hear aswell. I'm not saying my new current opinion on transmissions. I didnt want this to turn into a manual vs auto topic, I just wanted to find out why people have blinders.

[THAWA]

Lift-throttle-oversteer can be accomplished in just about every subaru powerful enough to get out of it's own way. It's a sudden weight upset from rear bias (on throttle) to front bias (off throttle). It's not a deficiency, it's a quirk. An auto is mushy enough to, pretty much, not allow it (or at least not allow you to power slide out of it).

You can lift off the throttle and oversteer in about anything. An auto usually won't allow you to powerslide it out.

Oh how untrue this is.

[THAWA]

So is it a safe assumption to make that there is no factual reason as to why people would choose one transmission design over another, just that it is opinion based, and a biased descision?

[kidatari]

I have a few more things to add.

1. Any transmission that decides to be in it's highest gear at 25 mph doesn't belong in my car.

2. An AT transmission is not smarter than one that's human controlled. I do not like a transmission that decides that it wants to think for me.

3. Are you trying to compensate or something. I currently own two AT subarus, one by choice (which was a bad choice), and one by chance (my turbo). The fun-to-drive factor just isn't the same as a MT. If you don't agree, then you havn't driven enough AT cars.

4. An AWD car already has enough drivetrain losses. Throw in a torque converter and see what happens.

5. Gearing on a AT subaru will never be as good as the gearing on a MT subaru. With 5+ speeds, instead of 4, you can make the revs fall to where you need it more easilly, then four wider spaced gears.

That is all.

[BAC5.2]

so why bring it up in the first place?

You brought up the issue with F1 and WRC. I was countering that issue.

500 laps at 200 mph would put a hurting on anything, period.

They chose Manuals over Autos, did they not? They did so for a reason.

I could go from 4th to 2nd quite frequently without stopping in 3rd so your speculation is false. Correct me if I'm wrong but your auto was an NA car not making as much power as you are now and with a different power band. Is it not at all possible that this setup could affect what gear you'd have to be? A better comparison would be two identical cars except for transmission, not two different cars.

No, the auto tranny will pass through 3rd on the way to 2nd. It'd be like me gating to 3rd, then down to 2nd.

Power has very little do to with it, it's about the rev range your in. The manual has more usable ratios. I would have been jockeying between the same gears in a 4EAT turbo legacy as well. To fast for 2nd, to slow for 3rd.

It's not a matter of the speed you're going that makes it downshift that's just one of the conditions, it's the amount of throttle you use. If you can't control that you can't make this arguement. Or if you dont know how to control the 4eat you can't make that arguement either. If you really didnt want to care about smoothness and wanted to do a 2nd gear run you would put the selector in 2 and press the manual button, viola, no 1st gear no matter how hard to punch it. So as I said before, MOOT arguement

Reread what I said. You floor it at 40mph, you aren't downshifting to 1st. To fast for 1st. Floor it at 25mph, your downshifting to 1st.

You'll notice I said that I said: "I don't have to roll into it until i'm going to fast to downshift to 3rd (meant to say 1st, my bad)"

I can hit it at the bottom of 2nd, and smoothly pull as much as necessary. If I floor it at 25mph, I can pull from 2nd, and it won't downshift to 1st. You floor it at 25mph, you'll downshift to 1st. Lock it in manual mode, and that's a step closer to being similar. With an auto you still have a mushy fluid balloon between the engine and tranny.

Just because people do it doesn't make it the correct way to do it. People put CAI's on cars all the time, they run 14 psi on a vf11 , They put bosch plat +4 plugs in, they do all kinds of things, but it doesnt make it te correct way, driving an auto harsh without any safeguards is just as wrong.

So? That's human error taking advantage of a mechanical flaw. An auto is much more likely to fail under hard driving than a manual. Plain and simple. Take a safe guard with the auto, you've gotta take the same safe guard with the manual to keep it fair.

For the record, every form of control you've shown me has be reproduced by myself with a 4eat. Anyway, This is what I wanted to hear aswell. I'm not saying my new current opinion on transmissions. I didnt want this to turn into a manual vs auto topic, I just wanted to find out why people have blinders.

Not exactly, as I said, you don't understand the level of control that can be acheived with a manual. That's fine, not many people do. But you take my car in 4EAT form, and I'll take my car in 5MT form. Drive the same roads, your going to be doing a LOT more thinking of what to do in the moment than I am. I don't worry about pushing the manual button, or feathering the throttle out to prevent downshifting. I don't have to worry about shifting to far. I don't worry about slow, and relatively unpredictable downshifts (as auto trannies often fluctuate with operating temperature). Instead of dealing with all of those things, I simply shift gears, and think 5 turns ahead. There's no worry about one gear being to tall or to short. It's just a matter of shifting. And shifting becomes second nature, and doesn't change over the course of a day. Watch the Mark Lovell video, and you'll see what a manual is all about. An auto couldn't do that, no matter how many "manual" buttons you have. That video is a perfect example of the fluid transfers for downshifts. An auto without some serious ECU work, will not downshift that smoothly (not throttle induced downshifting, but actual downshifting to set up for a turn).

THIS is the level of control that you gain with a manual transmission. They are reliable and consistant through the turns, and when it comes down to it, they are faster. Manuals are more competitive than autos, if you don't believe me, look at the top 10 cars at any REAL auto-x. Look at the number of auto's that rank, at all, in the SM class. You'll find very few, if any.

Oh how untrue this is.

I should have clarified, and auto will not allow you to powerslide out of it without a downshift, and it usually powerslides out with a downshift thanks to the lack of smoothness.

I have a question for you though, since your the 4eat wiz now that Ciper is gone. How do you set up for a turn in a 4eat? If you come out of one turn, pull hard to the next, how do you smoothly set up for the next? Now with a manual, it's a matter of heel-toeing down a gear (or two), getting off the clutch, and feathering the throttle through the turn. How do you accomplish this smoothly in a 4eat? I'm curious to know. Every 4eat Suby I've driven, does not smoothly downshift when pushing from 3 to 2 at quick paces.

[THAWA]

You're leaving the car in D for 1 and 2 so that doesnt make sense.

3, im not trying to compensate for anything, I'm trying to figure out what the big deal is

5 I agree.

[evolutionmovement]

This is like my ex trying to explain pointe to me (with two left feet unless industrial metal or cheesy '80's is playing). The only argument for a manual is preference if you can't drive well enough to notice the difference. I had an auto EA81 and a manual EA81. The manual got better mileage with the higher top gear and was much better through corners as a combo of gearing, engine braking, and clutch can be utilized to better effect than an auto to set up , carry, adjust, and follow-through corners (even allowing for left foot braking). It also doesn't kill brake pads as when you don't have to left-foot brake, which you still can do with a manual anyway. I don't like any auto on anything smaller than a V8 or with more than 3 speeds as the higher-gear number transmissions I've driven hunt. Manuals never hunt for a gear.

Steve

[BAC5.2]

Simplest reason that 5mt owners have "blinders" as you say. If you have to ask, you'll never know.

Blinders go both ways. There are die-hard auto fans (Ciper) that will never go MT.

Torque Converters suck. Plain and simple. They don't even compare to a clutch.

[scottzg]

Ahhh, the internet, where dorks can battle endlessly over untested and meaningless ideas.


I'm a die-hard manual guy. I like it. If you love your automatic, power to you wuss , just don't stick one in my car.

There are a few definate advantages to manuals that have been missed: It's lighter weight, and it can be started with nothing more than a hill or a buddy.

And the biggie: Although i am hard pressed to lose traction at low speeds (does this fkn matter???) or by snapping the throttle shut (no power!) I am entirely capable of burning up my brakes. 2 foot driving is hard on the brakes, for me, i would burn them up sooner. Much sooner. Not only is engine braking gone, but you start using the engine to cook them.

Hardy, if you want to swap back to an automatic, go for it. I might even help you. But I'd still think you were crazy.

[BAC5.2]

Road Racing buddy put it nicely:

"Manual is preferred if it suits the needs of the driving experience OR the situation itself can gain an advantage based on the situation of the driving conditions. If a driver feels that an automatic would be best for the driving conditions, then auto it is..."

I'm of the belief that there's no situation where an auto would do me better than a manual, save for rock-crawling or myself wanting to be lazy in traffic.

[scottzg]

One last thing:

When i was working for the forest service, 4 of us could drive stick. The 5th, one girl, could not, and refused to learn. All the trucks were stick. She ran the computer all summer, a horrid job.

You know both worlds, and can make an informed decision. Most auto drivers can't.

And so when i think of automatic drivers, i think of people like her, obstinate and stupid.

[THAWA]

I'm getting bored, but I'll respond to what intrests me

so why bring it up in the first place?

You brought up the issue with F1 and WRC. I was countering that issue.

and you brought up the issue of autos not being used in motorsports so Icountered with that, so I ask again, why bring it up in the first place?

It's not a matter of the speed you're going that makes it downshift that's just one of the conditions, it's the amount of throttle you use. If you can't control that you can't make this arguement. Or if you dont know how to control the 4eat you can't make that arguement either. If you really didnt want to care about smoothness and wanted to do a 2nd gear run you would put the selector in 2 and press the manual button, viola, no 1st gear no matter how hard to punch it. So as I said before, MOOT arguement

Reread what I said. You floor it at 40mph, you aren't downshifting to 1st. To fast for 1st. Floor it at 25mph, your downshifting to 1st.

You'll notice I said that I said: "I don't have to roll into it until i'm going to fast to downshift to 3rd (meant to say 1st, my bad)"

I can hit it at the bottom of 2nd, and smoothly pull as much as necessary. If I floor it at 25mph, I can pull from 2nd, and it won't downshift to 1st. You floor it at 25mph, you'll downshift to 1st. Lock it in manual mode, and that's a step closer to being similar. With an auto you still have a mushy fluid balloon between the engine and tranny.

And now you reread what I said. I dont know where you got 40 mph from, but for the sake of arguement 40 mph isnt' actually too fast for 1st. Mash it at 25mph with the selector in 2 and the manual button on, you're staying in 2nd gear. Period, unless you've found some way to trick the TCU into ignoring the manual button, but then why would you do that, and instead just not press the button? May I ask what you think the manual button does?

For the record, every form of control you've shown me has be reproduced by myself with a 4eat. Anyway, This is what I wanted to hear aswell. I'm not saying my new current opinion on transmissions. I didnt want this to turn into a manual vs auto topic, I just wanted to find out why people have blinders.

Not exactly, as I said, you don't understand the level of control that can be acheived with a manual. That's fine, not many people do. But you take my car in 4EAT form, and I'll take my car in 5MT form. Drive the same roads, your going to be doing a LOT more thinking of what to do in the moment than I am. I don't worry about pushing the manual button, or feathering the throttle out to prevent downshifting. I don't have to worry about shifting to far. I don't worry about slow, and relatively unpredictable downshifts (as auto trannies often fluctuate with operating temperature). Instead of dealing with all of those things, I simply shift gears, and think 5 turns ahead. There's no worry about one gear being to tall or to short. It's just a matter of shifting. And shifting becomes second nature, and doesn't change over the course of a day. Watch the Mark Lovell video, and you'll see what a manual is all about. An auto couldn't do that, no matter how many "manual" buttons you have. That video is a perfect example of the fluid transfers for downshifts. An auto without some serious ECU work, will not downshift that smoothly (not throttle induced downshifting, but actual downshifting to set up for a turn).

THIS is the level of control that you gain with a manual transmission. They are reliable and consistant through the turns, and when it comes down to it, they are faster. Manuals are more competitive than autos, if you don't believe me, look at the top 10 cars at any REAL auto-x. Look at the number of auto's that rank, at all, in the SM class. You'll find very few, if any.

*sigh* I completely understand everything you're saying, but you just can't seem to understand anything I'm saying. Do you really think that shifting a car is something that just becomes part of you? You do realize that wether you're consiously thinking about it or not you're still thinking about it. Just because you're not thinking about doing one thing doesnt atuomatically free you from not thinking about anything at all. You still have to think about when ou shift, how much throttle to use, when to clutch, when yo heel-toe, when you brake, when to turn, all that shit, whether you want to believe it or not, you're thinking about a whole lot of shit. It becomes second nature to you, and guess what, so does drivngin an auto. It's not like you sit ther ein the car talking to yourself through each turn, okay now i need to do this, okay i've done tht now i need to do this, okay i've done that , now i need to do this. I've seen that video plenty of times, and if you knew how to drive an auto, you'd know that's completely possible with the right techniques.

[THAWA]

Look, this isnt' what I wanted this topic to turn into, so I'm done replying.

[BAC5.2]

Your right Hardy, this is getting boring.

To answer why I have blinders to an auto: I know what a manual is capable of beyond an auto. I see the defects in an auto, and I see the advantages to a manual. I don't see any situation where an auto would perform better than a manual, other than me feeling to lazy to shift. It's personal preference, as everything is, but my personal preference is based on fact. If an auto is your bag, good for you. It's not mine, and if you don't understand why, you'll never know.

[Legacy777]

wow.....this thread got pretty hot and heavy......I've skimmed some stuff here and there....just not enough time to read everything.

I will say most of the comments made are a little opinionated.....rather then fact.

After you clear all the smoke....the same reoccuring theme emerges from the MT crowd...."fun factor" You can mask that by saying better control & connection....but the lines between the MT & AT are coming ever closer if you know how to proper utilize both transmissions to their capability.

I'd be more then happy to drive anyone's auto SS and go for a spirited drive. My uncle I did this when I lived back in PA. I still had my auto, and some of those roads were quite hairy at times. Could a MT provided me with more control...possibly...yet I knew how to utilize the tranny that was in there.

I will close at saying.....I don't know if it's the MT I have, the fluid I have in, or if all the subaru tranny's are like this, but I am really quite disappointed in the shifting. Go drive an S2000, MR2, hell my 95 nissan truck, and they all will shift far smoother then my subaru. Again I don't know if there's something a fowl with my tranny, or if it's just common. I had a buddy who owned a 99 rs drive my car. He said it felt the same as his RS. I concluded it must be a subaru thing. All the gears I feel like I have to shove it in gear. It doesn't matter if I shift slowly or fast. Occasionly, it'll slip right in, but the majority of the time I have to force it.

I'm very seriously hoping swapping out the fluid will dramatically improve things......if not....not sure what I'm going to do...

[entirelyturbo]

It all comes down to what I said earlier...

I'm going to toss out these arguments: reliability, speed (acceleration/lap times/anything), gas mileage, etc. These arguments are no longer valid, because the automatic is just as reliable, just as fast pretty much, and gets just as good of gas mileage.

It really all comes down to preference. Plain and simple.

My transmission is definitely showing signs of age. No gear engages as quickly as I'm sure it once did. If I'm going 30 and I wanna put it in 2nd for a heel-toe into a right-hander, I have to hold it there about a half-second before it goes in... I could double-clutch and rev-match it, but I've done my throwout bearing once already, thanks

I'd still rather have a decrepid old manual than a perfectly new auto though. You can rig up all the fancy Tiptronic shit you want to it, I'm still not interested.

[BAC5.2]

I'd still rather have a decrepid old manual than a perfectly new auto though. You can rig up all the fancy Tiptronic shit you want to it, I'm still not interested.

Automotive Purity

[tris91ricer]

hehe.. this is HEATED. you guys get downright MEAN.. everyone wants to be right.. this is quite comical, though, because i can't wait to see the diff between my MT and new AT.. my personal decision for the choice was that the traffic where i live gets hairy, so i'm just tired of shifting. I'm a busy guy, i talk on my phone, i eat, smoke, and do plenty of things in my car.. yes, i want it to be performance, but there are places where i draw the line, and convenience is one of them, therefore, 4EAT, baby!

sorry, phil.. but i do understand where you're coming from. The feeling you get when shifting is a control thing, and its VERY addictive..
MT=crack cocaine. each gear, phil, you're just "chasing the dragon's tail.."

-=tris

[professor]

A simple reason: I like old cars. And the autos on old cars, if even available, are absolutely terrible. My two daily cars right now have 165,000 and 150,000 miles respectively, and both have 5 speeds and both shift perfectly. One clutch has been replaced, and the other is still on the original.


If these cars were autos I'd be sweating daily waiting for the inevitable break-down. I can fix a manual but not an auto.

I also like small, light cars with small engines. Here, the auto can suck the lifeblood right out of the car. Miata with an auto ? BMW 2002 with an auto ? BMW 3.0CS with an auto ? Civic Si with an auto ? I shudder to think how bad those cars would have been with autos.


If I was buying a high-dollar, brand new car I'd give a 5 speed auto some serious consideration, especially if it had a manual select feature.

The BMW auto-shifting and clutching (and paddle-shifting) manual box is tops in the world, but now we're talking a $50,000+ car. You'll see one in my driveway in 5 years, or $15,000 whichever comes first.