ej20t swap

legacy13 · Post by **legacy13** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:17 pm

I have a 92 Subaru legacy Sport sedan. It has the EJ22T, and i was wondering how easy (or difficult) it would be to swap out the EJ22T with the STi EJ20T (from the 22b Impreza). Any input would be greatly appreciated.

91White-T · Post by **91White-T** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:23 pm

The 22b Impreza has an EJ22G(same block as your SS) not an EJ20, and there was only ~500 of them. Stick with the EJ22T, its much better. Throw an IC and 16g on it and it'll move nicely!

legacy13 · Post by **legacy13** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:50 pm

so do you think that the EJ22T will work better than the 22b engine? Are there any turbos that will fit up nicely with my existing setup? The turbo i currently have is the IHI VF11, correct?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:40 pm

He's saying you won't find one. They made about 400 22Bs and I believe there's only one in the country (SNA HQ in NJ. How's that for acronyms?).

Honestly, you'd have an easier time finding an old Lamborghini V12. After all, and discounting the Miura and Countach, off the top of my head they must have made five times more of them and many came here.

Steve

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Ya, the only street legal 22B is at SOA (Subaru Of America) in NJ.

Even if you could find a 22B motor, which would be almost as cool as finding a Sasquatch or proving once and for all that Aliens exist, you could build up your EJ22T for less money then it would likely cost you to buy it.

The EJ22T is a slightly better block configuration because we have the oil squirters and besides the forged pistons and DOHC in/on the 22B's motor they are practically the same.

You could rebuild the EJ22T with forged pistons, swap on some DOHC's, put a bigger turbo on it, FMIC, injectors and stand alone engine management for less then the 22B motors cost. On top of that it would likely have WAY more power then the standard 22B motor anyways.

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:35 pm

legacy92ej22t wrote:
The EJ22T is a slightly better block configuration because we have the oil squirters and besides the forged pistons and DOHC in/on the 22B's motor they are practically the same.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has. The opinion of ever serious tuner I have spoken to about the oil squirters it they cause more problems than they solve. Cobb wouldn't even consider building my EJ22T block for me unless I agreed to let them cap the squirters. And did I mention that they often fall out?

And there is a reason that Subaru removed them on the 22B block. If the squirters really are better, why did Subaru remove them on one of the most powerful factory engines they have ever released?

Furthermore, if you want to get technical, they are not practically the same. Not only is the 22B block cast without squirters, but it has forged pistons. And the EJ22T is a phase I block with the thrust bearing in the center on bearing #3. The 22B block is phase II with the thrust bearing moved to #1.

This in no way discounts how potent the EJ22T block is, but I just wanted to clarify the facts and share my opinion...

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:35 am

Haha, OK Matt. I did mention that the 22B motor had forged pistons, DOHC's and that besides that they were practically the same. I didn't say or imply that besides that they were the same. So OK, one's Phase I and the other is Phase II but that doesn't really help the conversation does it? Like I said, I mentioned that the 22B motor had forged pistons but since I didn't mention that the thrust bearing was moved I guess I was grossly wrong in saying that they're "practically the same" huh?

The 22B motor has a different intake manifold too but I didin't really think it was worth mentioning.

I had heard that the squirters have fallen out on occasion but I had never heard that tuners like Cobb were that turned off by them, that's interesting. I guess I'll give you that but you can still build up an EJ22T and have better power then it would cost to buy a 22B motor (if you could even find one) don't you think?

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:43 am

They are so far from practically the same it is ridiculous to even debate. I really only went into the level of detail that I did because of the 6th word in the section I posted. I patently disagree that the EJ22T is better than a 22B. That's all...

scottzg · Post by **scottzg** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:27 am

Matt Monson wrote: If the squirters really are better, why did Subaru remove them on one of the most powerful factory engines they have ever released?

Just throwing out possibilities, but it seems like they're more of a longevity feature than an outright performance thing. People would expect their legacy to last 150k, but most 22b's are more likely going to be stuffed into trees before then. In the meantime, they would rob hp and reduce oil pressure to other, more essential areas. Not to mention they are one more mechanical piece that is more likely to fail under high pressure. Please keep in mind im making all this up.

Matt Monson wrote:because of the 6th word in the section I posted

"the" ?

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:40 am

OK, right on. Again I'll give you that. The 22B's motor IS better BUT don't you agree that for the money it would cost to buy a 22B motor (again, if you could even find one) you could build up an EJ22T and have more power?

I think you're being a little too criticle of my use of the word 'practically' ( I was only generalizing). I mean, besides the oil squirters aren't they the same block? I mentioned the forges pistons and heads. We all know that the engine management and fueling (injectors ect...) is different and that it has a TMIC and bigger turbo but I mentioned that all that would need changed on the EJ22T. Maybe we have different thoughts on what 'practically' means in this case. Besides the things I had already mentioned (turbo, heads, fueling, engine management, forged pistons, no squirters, intercooler ect..) they are both 2.2L closed deck turbo motors and to me that is "practically the same".

Tleg93 · Post by **Tleg93** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:57 pm

Please do tell what all the differences are, I'm curious if they truly are as legion as you say.

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:43 pm

legacy92ej22t wrote:I think you're being a little too criticle of my use of the word 'practically' ( I was only generalizing). I mean, besides the oil squirters aren't they the same block? I mentioned the forges pistons and heads. We all know that the engine management and fueling (injectors ect...) is different and that it has a TMIC and bigger turbo but I mentioned that all that would need changed on the EJ22T. Maybe we have different thoughts on what 'practically' means in this case. Besides the things I had already mentioned (turbo, heads, fueling, engine management, forged pistons, no squirters, intercooler ect..) they are both 2.2L closed deck turbo motors and to me that is "practically the same".

The 6th word I was refering to above was "better". I don't take issue with your opinion that they are practically the same. And I think you may be taking my opinion a little personally.

There are some real significant similarities between the two. I just went to the level of detail I did to show what was better about the 22B's motor. And you are dead right it would be cheaper to build an EJ22T up than to buy an EJ22G from a 22B. In fact, I recently heard about a 22B owner in the UK who fubar'd his block and contacted Subaru to buy a new one. Guess what they sent him? A legacy turbo shortblock.

As for the speculation about oil squirters being for longevity? I don't buy it. Why? Because all the '89-93 closed deck EJ20G motors also used them. These engines are from an era where Group A homologation rules in rally racing led to production engines being nearly identical to the engines that were in the race cars. The biggest difference being that the race engines got blueprinted. This is also why TD05's were fitted to those early WRX engines. At the time, Subaru thought it was a performance enhancing feature. And it does aid in cooling the pistons and reducing detonation. But as has been mentioned, the extra friction of all that oil in the cylinder and the issues surrounding extra pressure needs pretty much negated the benefits it provided.

Lastly,
There is one major difference that I mentioned above that makes a huge difference between the two blocks, in my book. The thrust bearing issue. Moving the thrust bearing to the end of the crank, instead of in the center, made the bottom end significantly strong and less likely to walk in a high powered build on the phase II blocks. But this is only my opinion, even if many major tuners agree with me...

elkaboom · Post by **elkaboom** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:22 am

Godamn! I never fail to loose interest in the meanderings of the posters on this board; despite the fact that I'm n/a, the wealth of technical information that I'm exposed to continually inflates my depressurized grey matter. Fuckin' cool. Carry on tuners, carry on...

scottzg · Post by **scottzg** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:22 am

As for the speculation about oil squirters being for longevity? I don't buy it. Why? Because all the '89-93 closed deck EJ20G motors also used them. These engines are from an era where Group A homologation rules in rally racing led to production engines being nearly identical to the engines that were in the race cars. The biggest difference being that the race engines got blueprinted. This is also why TD05's were fitted to those early WRX engines. At the time, Subaru thought it was a performance enhancing feature. And it does aid in cooling the pistons and reducing detonation. But as has been mentioned, the extra friction of all that oil in the cylinder and the issues surrounding extra pressure needs pretty much negated the benefits it provided.

That doesnt make much sense. Those rally cars are street cars that have been converted to rally cars, not the other way around. Sure, they might take a part that would benefit the rally program if it wont harm street car sales. Subaru makes money selling cars, not winning rallies.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:22 am

But they win rallies to sell cars ... Or is it they sell cars to win rallies? I don't know anything anymore. Damn Red Sox.

Steve

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:26 am

They make money selling cars which people see are doing well winning rallies.

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:34 pm

scottzg wrote:
As for the speculation about oil squirters being for longevity? I don't buy it. Why? Because all the '89-93 closed deck EJ20G motors also used them. These engines are from an era where Group A homologation rules in rally racing led to production engines being nearly identical to the engines that were in the race cars. The biggest difference being that the race engines got blueprinted. This is also why TD05's were fitted to those early WRX engines. At the time, Subaru thought it was a performance enhancing feature. And it does aid in cooling the pistons and reducing detonation. But as has been mentioned, the extra friction of all that oil in the cylinder and the issues surrounding extra pressure needs pretty much negated the benefits it provided.
That doesnt make much sense. Those rally cars are street cars that have been converted to rally cars, not the other way around. Sure, they might take a part that would benefit the rally program if it wont harm street car sales. Subaru makes money selling cars, not winning rallies.

I reiterate. These engines come from an era when group A homologation rules required the use of identical parts in the race cars as were in production cars. Subaru, like many of the Japanese companies, taking motorsports very very seriously. The result is race quality parts put into street cars to meet the production class requirements.

Case in point. The 1989 Legacy RS-RA. The initial run of this car was 100 units because in order to go for the 100k km land speed record it had to be a "production" car. That car was purpose built for breaking that record. And once the record was broken, and people got fired up about this new EJ20G engine that Subaru had made, Subaru continued production of the RS-RA in larger quantities.

Without looking it up, I can't tell you the minimum number of production units group A competition required, but it was substantially more than 100. Subaru's solution was to make all the manual geared Legacy RS's to that spec, and later all the manual WRX sedans as well, with their release in '94. But when the rules changed for the '97 season, Subaru no longer needed to fit that spec, and this is when the TD04 was introduced because it was more streetable and didn't have the lag that the TD05 had.

For the Japanese, and their culture racing wins sell cars, and that has been a major part of their marketing for a long long time...

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:24 am

I have a few Q's.
Has anyone fubar'd a set of stock ej22t pistons? Other than fuel problems. I haven't heard of it and some of us have got to be running up at the top of the fuel injectors capacity.

Has anyone got flow numbers on the SOHC heads to DOHC heads? I'd bet I could get close to the flow of the DOCH heads with a good P&P for way less than it would cost to get the DOHC heads to work.

I'm not an "expert tuner" but I've been around a lot of turbo engines. My guess is that the ECU is the biggest thing holding us back. After the stock turbo no IC thing. That's where I'm going next stand alone.

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:12 pm

Look at my "heads are different" thread for flow numbers. The EJ22T heads actually flow better than DOHC EJ205 heads. They don't flow better than 22B heads, or old EJ20K heads, nor the EJ25 heads. But they don't flow like crap as people say on NASIOC every damned day.

And the stock turbo pistons are very strong. I have heard tale of them getting cratered, but it was always on super high powered builds and the result of detonation...

dzx · Post by **dzx** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:21 am

So what would be the rev limit on a set of EJ22T heads with a good turbo? Could we hit 7k with a TDO5? Stealth_wrx on clubwrx.net has a really sick EJ22T build that is reving to 8k.

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:39 pm

With upgraded springs, the stock heads should be able to rev to about 7800 rpm. You might try and go higher than that, but I have been told that the HLA's can't handle it...

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:58 pm

Mmmm 7800rpm sounds good. Better on a boxer.

How much would a set of them valve springs cost?

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:23 pm

<golem look> we wants them we does </golem>

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ej20t swap

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