New to the Forums have a few questions.

[zazzn]

I was wondering if anyone could direct me to FAQ.

Pretty much I'm a supra guy... I have a 87 turbo with a swapped 2.5 twin turbo (twin k26) setup.

Anyways... I'm looking for a good daily driver that’s good for the winter too... That’s why I'm here...

I was looking at a legacy turbo AWD as they are in my budget range.

What I would like to know is the following

1. What HP / 1/4 times should I expect with basic mods (up boost to just under FCO), 3" exhaust, intake ect..

2. Does this car come with a stock IC? (I see you guys upgrading to sabb 900 IC's)

3. What should I be looking for when I go to buy one?

4. Form what I can tell they all have the same engine 2.2 or 2.2 turbo which is EJ22 I think or EJ22T.

5. How are the auto/5spd trans? what can they hold?

I'd like to see about 300 BHP if that requires and upgraded turbo so be it.

I'm not new to power and I realize how much work and effort it takes (and money) but I'd like a nice car that I can use in the winter to get me a to b as reliably as my 90 accord with over 350000KM on her.


Also any known issues with these cars (general stuff)

Thanks for you're time.

[J-MoNeY]

1. What HP / 1/4 times should I expect with basic mods (up boost to just under FCO), 3" exhaust, intake ect..

14-16 second passes.

2. Does this car come with a stock IC? (I see you guys upgrading to sabb 900 IC's)

No.

3. What should I be looking for when I go to buy one?

No grinding in the tranny. Quick start up, basic stuff that you'd look for in any car.

4. Form what I can tell they all have the same engine 2.2 or 2.2 turbo which is EJ22 I think or EJ22T.

Turbos have the EJ22T, EJ22 for non.

5. How are the auto/5spd trans? what can they hold?

Beefed up, good for your purpose.

I'd like to see about 300 BHP if that requires and upgraded turbo so be it.

Start with a 16G and move up from there.

[tris91ricer]

Anyways... I'm looking for a good daily driver that’s good for the winter too... That’s why I'm here...

I'm lost. You're really not making sense. You want a winter/daily driver...that gets you from A to B but you want it to have 300bhp?? (wtf is that?) And you need it to have turbo?
Which is it? Do you want to build another powerhouse just like your Supra, but with AWD, or do you need a winter beater?
I dunno what you folks do in Ontario there.. but.. do you drag race in the snow, too?

I'd like a nice car that I can use in the winter to get me a to b as reliably as my 90 accord

Get an NA Wagon. But it might help if you make up your mind first. When I think of "Winter Beater" or "Daily Driver", 300bhp, upgraded turbo, and all that jazz don't become part of the thought process... Which is it?

[zazzn]

haha.. Yeah well about 85% of the time in the winter the snow is cleared. The rest of the 15% is wet salt/slush shit that rusts the hell out of any car.

This won't be a winter ONLY car, since the supra is usually under the operating knife most of the time.

So it's going to be the king of the C class of my friends... Currently my 90 accord stock 5 spd holds the class but just barely... Especially with my friend who just got a Turbo dodge shadow.. hheh.

I just need boost.. 24x7.... with out it driving just isn't fun.

[Brat4by4]

Get an NA Wagon. But it might help if you make up your mind first. When I think of "Winter Beater" or "Daily Driver", 300bhp, upgraded turbo, and all that jazz don't become part of the thought process... Which is it?

Ok, ignore him.

The TD05-16g is a turbo that can get you 300hp to the wheels, let alone the crank. bhp = brake horsepower for those that asked. Going with stand-alone engine management alone will get you well above 250 hp with 3" exhaust and coffee-mugged intake (look it up ) The car is very capabe of around 200+ with the stock MAF, 270 with the stock fueling system / turbo, 400+ with a different turbo. These cars come very detuned from the factory to run without an intercooler. Stand-alone is just about the only way to fully realize the potential of the car. Otherwise you can get about 250 before serious issues come up with how safely the car is being run, and that's only because the ECU doesn't know what's going on.

[-K-]

I'm with you all the way with boost 24-7. Got to find a way to put a turbo on my motercycle
If it's a auto check for bind. Feels like a spool if you turn the wheel all the way over and go in circles.
It's not well known but almost all the go fast stuff for WRX's will fit with little or no mods: turbos, DPs, FMICs, suspension, all have been fit with our cars.
You can get to about 200hp with exhaust, IC, +boost. Then it'll start to cost more.
Good luck, hope you find a good one

Where do I find these snow drags? Sounds cool

[tris91ricer]

Ok, ignore him.

Turbo elitists...

[entirelyturbo]

Uhh sleeper, boostjunkie's Legacy Turbo was his daily driver in the snow with a 16G and 17lbs boost, some estimated 250whp and over 210k miles...

[zazzn]

Hey guys,

thanks for the info.

Doesn't seem like a 3" exhaust does much for these car's by the sounds of what you guys say... Also I'm guessing the turbo must be TINY since even a talon can get to 300 AWHP on that tiny thing.

I know on my supra a 3" exhaust gives almost 80RWHP form the upped boost and the extra breathing room.

What should the compression be stock on the engine?

Are 16G's bolt on? or do I need a manifold to match the exhuast side?

As for ECU, can't I just run a FCD and get a fuel pressure regulator then tune on the dyno 12 to 1? i mean ECU is a problem for any car with more boost, as the fuel maps usually only go to about double stock boost.

I'm guessing 16-18PSI is about the max before the turbo blows nothing but hot air out?

Are there any problems that I should look for... like areas prone to rust?

All the little things that cars usually have?

If I was to get a low milage JDM engine is there changes that I have to do to make it work to replace a tired worn out engine?

Thanks for the info and sorry for all the questions.....

[entirelyturbo]

The stock turbo is an IHI VF11, I personally wouldn't put more than 14lbs boost on it. Not that it can't handle it, but I think a slightly bigger turbo would be more ideal.

(Not like I have any experience with working on turbos , this is just what I've learned on here)

I presume that 16G's bolt on, ask BAC5.2, he just put one on his Legacy.

Ask vrg3 for an FCD. He can build one out of a stock ECU, and from what I hear, it's better than anything HKS can make

Don't bother with a JDM engine. The EJ22T is Subaru's toughest engine ever. Look in the "215k on EJ22T" thread, they're that good.

Hope you end up with a nice Turbo Legacy

[zazzn]

So do I

I think I will though thats the direction i'm leaning towards now....

I've got way too much turbo knowledge to not get one... When I looked at a older Audi engine bay audi 5000 (what I was looking at as well quattro turbo.. Man I got scared.. that shit is like form 1960 the tech any ways... My supra eclipes everything in there. And I though my supra looked full of shit....

I'm suprised none of you have done FMIC's get a mk3 supra FMIC.. I did 445 rwhp on one.. I'm sure they will be PERFECT for the Legacy... they arn't huge and the come out and in the same side so it makes it easy for plumbing

[stipro]

Hey, well you've certainly come to the right place for answers.

For the turbo, the 16G does bolt onto the stock exhaust side, however the cold side has to be clocked or a custom pipe made to mate the turbo to the throttle body. An intercooler, like the Saab 900, plumbed in would make this easier, per say. A wrx intercooler can be made to fit with an un clocked turbo, but bashing the fire wall with a sledge hammer is required .
The cold side has to have a 90 degree inlet to hook up to the stock pipe from the MAF, or you can make one from a tight silicone 90 and a piece of pipe.

Oh, and routing a FMIC is fairly simple task on these cars, you wrap the pipe around from the turbo side, to the front, and back along the drivers side to keep it neat and away from heat. More Power


rsstiboy's car, an aussie Liberty


3" exhaust is awesome on these cars, definetly makes power and sounds great. Check out this link:

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=16562


The most common place for rust is the rear quarter panels above the wheels, but it is easy to fix.

Hope that helps a little.

[boostjunkie]

haha.. Yeah well about 85% of the time in the winter the snow is cleared. The rest of the 15% is wet salt/slush shit that rusts the hell out of any car.

This won't be a winter ONLY car, since the supra is usually under the operating knife most of the time.

So it's going to be the king of the C class of my friends... Currently my 90 accord stock 5 spd holds the class but just barely... Especially with my friend who just got a Turbo dodge shadow.. hheh.

I just need boost.. 24x7.... with out it driving just isn't fun.

You'll need ALOT to compete with your friend's turbo dodge. Easily one of the cheapest cars to mod.

HOWEVER, the turbo legacy has a lot of potential. If you're good with fabricating parts (like injector fuel rails) and get a good aftermarket ecu, you'll be golden. Everything else from the wrx is pretty easy to swap over.

A lot of people on this board have found the limits of the stock fuel system (myself included), and need to move onto the next step. Upgrading the fuel and ecu systems.

[zazzn]

Why upgraded ECU? I'd rather run S-AFC or similar piggy backs like my supra?

Also for fuel rail are they side feed or top feed injectors.. they are easy to come by.. I have 6 Top feed 440's form my supra sitting around doing nothing. form ND.

Someone sell me a good car already

[tris91ricer]

AFAIK, the S-AFCs don't work on our cars.. ask BAC5.2 about that one.. something in the ECU that learns around it.
Good luck finding a Turbo leg, though, you'll fall in love.

[boostjunkie]

While a S-AFC is useful on our cars, an aftermarket ecu has more flexibility to get rid of the MAF sensor on our cars (which shows a tendency to max out in readings with a 16g). There's a post about this somewhere on the board. Once you reach the peak reading on the MAF sensor, no amount of tuning with a S-AFC will help.

HOWEVER, you might be able to integrate a larger MAF sensor into the system, but no one other than Vikash has really done any research on this topic.

With the amount of power that you're hoping to achieve (~300whp), the need for larger injectors is very real. The S-AFCs ability to calibrate for a change in injector size remains limited at around 15-20% increase in injector size to maintain a steady idle/low rpm operation. This will be out of the range of the injector size you'll probably have to run.

The DSM guys usually try to get around this by running a larger MAF housing to compensate for the increased injector size, and then tune conservatively with the S-AFC (which now only has to change MAF calibrations under 15%). However, no one has done any type of modifications of this sort, and if you increase injector size further, you'll have to recalibrate everything again (MAF housing to injector size).

Is it worth it? You can get an aftermarket ecu for aroun $800-1500 these days. I believe the ecu that Vikash's brother is using on his Supra is around $500!! With these types of units you can run a MAP sensor, which eliminates the need for MAF sensor sizing and recalibration, while giving you a better control over fuel maps.

Mind you, adjusting fuel curves via S-AFC not only alters fuel mapping, but SIMULTANEOUSLY alters timing control, as the ecu is trticked into thinking the engine is under less load and is getting less air in... not always a desireable result. Sure you can buy a S-ITC, but you've now spent as much as an aftermarket ecu.

[Matt Monson]

The injectors are side feed and there are very very few options to replace them without getting custom fuel rails.

And for "just" 300 hp, I favour the AFC/ MBC/ FCD route. It just isn't that serious of a build to go to the trouble and $$$ of getting a stand alone.

You can hit 15-16psi on the stock turbo without going to far out of the efficiency range. But that is really a mute point since you seem ready to do the right thing and get a TD05-16G. DeadBolt sells them new, ready to install, already clocked.

There is a local guy here in CO that uses an old Volvo radiator as a FMIC. But they aren't that hard to fabricate if you wanted one. And you might consider flipping the intake manifold around to face the front if you go that route. Less plumbing and better throttle response that was. I know of a couple of guys who don't post here that have done that.

"I'm lost. You're really not making sense. You want a winter/daily driver...that gets you from A to B but you want it to have 300bhp?? (wtf is that?) And you need it to have turbo? "

And I just had to laugh when I read this. What's an STi? And here in Colorado, we have an ice racing series in the winter...

[Brat4by4]

Why upgraded ECU? I'd rather run S-AFC or similar piggy backs like my supra?

Also for fuel rail are they side feed or top feed injectors.. they are easy to come by.. I have 6 Top feed 440's form my supra sitting around doing nothing. form ND.

Here's the thing... the Subaru ECU is just too smart. It might sound hokey, but that is the truth, piggy backs are eventually figured out by the ECU's. And the ECU is just soooo undertuned to handle a intercoolerless car. If you go standalone, you eliminate every problem associated with trying to achieve higher numbers. ~$1k for the ecu, ~$700 for injectors/rails kit, ~$300 for a turboback exhaust will completely unleash the car. All that is needed is what turbo you want, whether you want to push 250whp on up to 400whp.

Otherwise, you aren't going to get much over 280 horse at the crank. Which of course isn't too bad, considering it is a relatively light chassis at about 3000lbs even.

[zazzn]

While a S-AFC is useful on our cars, an aftermarket ecu has more flexibility to get rid of the MAF sensor on our cars (which shows a tendency to max out in readings with a 16g). There's a post about this somewhere on the board. Once you reach the peak reading on the MAF sensor, no amount of tuning with a S-AFC will help.

HOWEVER, you might be able to integrate a larger MAF sensor into the system, but no one other than Vikash has really done any research on this topic.

With the amount of power that you're hoping to achieve (~300whp), the need for larger injectors is very real. The S-AFCs ability to calibrate for a change in injector size remains limited at around 15-20% increase in injector size to maintain a steady idle/low rpm operation. This will be out of the range of the injector size you'll probably have to run.

The DSM guys usually try to get around this by running a larger MAF housing to compensate for the increased injector size, and then tune conservatively with the S-AFC (which now only has to change MAF calibrations under 15%). However, no one has done any type of modifications of this sort, and if you increase injector size further, you'll have to recalibrate everything again (MAF housing to injector size).

Is it worth it? You can get an aftermarket ecu for aroun $800-1500 these days. I believe the ecu that Vikash's brother is using on his Supra is around $500!! With these types of units you can run a MAP sensor, which eliminates the need for MAF sensor sizing and recalibration, while giving you a better control over fuel maps.

Mind you, adjusting fuel curves via S-AFC not only alters fuel mapping, but SIMULTANEOUSLY alters timing control, as the ecu is trticked into thinking the engine is under less load and is getting less air in... not always a desireable result. Sure you can buy a S-ITC, but you've now spent as much as an aftermarket ecu.

'

I realzie all this.. On my 87Turbo surpa we have a AFM system which the adjustment of the S-AFC adjusts the signal directly and we still hit fuel cut at a limit of HZ that the AFM sees and a few other things.

I'm pretty confident I can trick the MAF like anyone else. 500+ for a aftermarket ecu sounds nice but you have no adjustability unless you get it reburned..

I'm thinkin about the Emanage like i use on my surpa where it can compensate for fuel at idle and then take over by adjusting fuel... a MAP sensor sounds very nice (infact my new ECU for my supra is a MAP system) but if this is a MAf doesn't it output a voltage? Couldn't I just hit it with a resistor or a Zener diode to max the ECU signal and then add fuel with safc/AFPR (more pressure in the fuel rail)

Thats currently what I was doing on my Supra.. (stock ECU) 50 PSI base pressure and I was actually pulling fuel to make the HZ seem less to the ECU to raise the boost. I can also adjust timing though the Emanage. this way....

[zazzn]

[quote="Matt Monson"

AFC/ MBC/ FCD route.
quote]

I don't think that will work since the FCD remaps the stock voltages to another voltage. So if you use a SAFC you're adjusting the signal form the MAF which adds fuel... Not the injector directly...

FCD/AFPR/EBC (has to be EBC MBC just a pain in the neck)

As for the sidefeed injectors... What size are they stock? And what impedence? I know the Stock mk4 in Northamerica uses 550 CC side feed injectors which are low impedence.

550's should be more then plenty to get a 4 CLY to 300 RWHP

[zazzn]

Why upgraded ECU? I'd rather run S-AFC or similar piggy backs like my supra?

Also for fuel rail are they side feed or top feed injectors.. they are easy to come by.. I have 6 Top feed 440's form my supra sitting around doing nothing. form ND.

Here's the thing... the Subaru ECU is just too smart. It might sound hokey, but that is the truth, piggy backs are eventually figured out by the ECU's. And the ECU is just soooo undertuned to handle a intercoolerless car. If you go standalone, you eliminate every problem associated with trying to achieve higher numbers. ~$1k for the ecu, ~$700 for injectors/rails kit, ~$300 for a turboback exhaust will completely unleash the car. All that is needed is what turbo you want, whether you want to push 250whp on up to 400whp.

Otherwise, you aren't going to get much over 280 horse at the crank. Which of course isn't too bad, considering it is a relatively light chassis at about 3000lbs even.

Problem with ALL standalones is you lose the driveablity of the car... it's just not a good daily driver anymore...

I think the first step for me is to find a car though

[azn2nr]

with a standalone you dont nessairaly loose driaviblity of the car. you can tune a base map that uses rpm based boost like stock and have a map selector. as for turbos, anything wrx will work including the fp green which on the wrx side is the most popular all around turbo capeable of 500 hp.

on fliping the manifold around you cant do it unless you move the alternator and ac compressor then cut a hole in the hood. if you want to have the tb in the front cut a hole in the other side and reweld the tb in there.

anther thing that wasnt mentioned yet (i dont think) is that the heads become a restriction at high power. i think phase 1 dohc legacy heads bolt on but im not sure. thats the way im looking until im told otherwise.

[evolutionmovement]

The manifold can be cut and welded to alter TB angle when turning it around.

Steve

[azn2nr]

techicnaly you could use a spacer to change the angle too. but when suberboy (nasioc) did it he just cut a hole in the other side. least thats what he told me

[Matt Monson]

anther thing that wasnt mentioned yet (i dont think) is that the heads become a restriction at high power. i think phase 1 dohc legacy heads bolt on but im not sure. thats the way im looking until im told otherwise.

The heads will bolt to the block, but the stock manifold will not bolt to the heads. You can get ANY EJ series heads and bolt them to an EJ22T as long as you get the manifold and injectors/fuel rails at the same time.

But the stock heads will not become a restriction until between 300-350CHP. If 300 is the goal don't worry about it...