How Does This Sound?

[Subaru_Nation555]

I know that there a tons of threads on suspension and what parts are good etc. I have been researching and compiling a list of my future suspension setup. I would like to get some feedback from people who have tried any of these parts. I hope nobody minds too much repeating some of what has already been said. Thanks

STi Group N Mounts (Front/Rear)
KYB AGX Struts or GR-2's (how big a difference?)
Whiteline Adjustable Rear Sway Bar
Some higher quality end links (perrin or whiteline etc.)
Cusco front and rear strut braces (maybe)
stock springs (hopefully okay after 115,000 miles)

My final goal is a car that is comfortable for daily driving but can handle fairly hard cornering. I would be willing to compromise some ride quality for better handling. Thanks guys.

[BAC5.2]

Get new springs. Stock springs would just make the AGX's or GR2's feel way over damped. That would hurt more than it would help.

AGX's are adjustable. GR2's are not.

The strut tower braces aren't that big a deal. A $20 Ebay bar will do the same job as a $250 Cusco joint.

Otherwise, sounds pretty good. Might want to do a front sway bar, and an aggressive alignment (~2 degrees camber all around, maybe 1/16th toe out up front, and 0 toe in back). Sticky tires are a must.

[evolutionmovement]

I disagree that stock springs make the GR2s feel overdamped. IMO, they feel like the set up should have from the factory - the difference in damping is not overwhelming. They're an excellent cheap upgrade (cheaper than OEM struts even). I can't speak for the AGXs.

Steve

[professor]

The AGX's work fine with stock springs, if set on "1" front and "3" rear. I can't compare directly to new stock struts as mine were shot, but what a difference.

It seems to me there are two paths, the "mild" rebuild for about $700 or the "all in" job for over $1300.

The mild job would retain stock springs, in which case either the GR2 or the AGX would be fine if set correctly. I think a 20-24mm rear sway bar is overkill for stock springs and would just fit a used turbo or air suspension rear bar for $35 and save the $$$. I also think aftermarket links are overkill here, and would replace the bushings in the stock links with Energy PU bushings for $14 times two. Also replace the bar mounts with Energy for another $14. That saves about $160 versus new links.

I'm about to get flamed for this, but my strut mounts were in pristine condition after 165k miles so I cleaned them and put them right back in. I wouldn't do this if fitting stiffer springs or using the stiff setting on the AGX's though. Savings several hundred $$

The all-in scenario is springs, struts, larger bars, links, mounts. Certainly this will give a great sporting ride but it will NOT resemble a stock ride in any way shape or form, and the car will be way lower.

I should mention that I just finished scenario #1 myself and spent $700 including replacing worn suspension bushings, which should not be neglected. The rears all looked pretty good on my car but the front A-arm bushings had seen better days.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way here, it is personal preference and what the car will be used for. I do think certain components are likely to work well together, and others will be overkill and overwhelm stock components, especially over-large sway bars.

[Brat4by4]

The mild job would retain stock springs, in which case either the GR2 or the AGX would be fine if set correctly. I think a 20-24mm rear sway bar is overkill for stock springs and would just fit a used turbo or air suspension rear bar for $35 and save the $$$.

He has a turbo. And depending on his driving style and considering the stock (understeer happy) setup, the bar on 20mm would be reasonable.

I also think aftermarket links are overkill here, and would replace the bushings in the stock links with Energy PU bushings for $14 times two. Also replace the bar mounts with Energy for another $14. That saves about $160 versus new links.

I beg to differ because these made a world of difference in my car. But I also don't have stock links with new bushings to compare with, though. Stock plastic ones have been known to break, so I would feel more comfortable with Whiteline ones. And like I said, I wasn't expecting much difference but they just made the car feel a whole lot more solid.

I'm about to get flamed for this, but my strut mounts were in pristine condition after 165k miles so I cleaned them and put them right back in. I wouldn't do this if fitting stiffer springs or using the stiff setting on the AGX's though. Savings several hundred $$

Even brand new, the stock top mounts have lots of flex. This flex doesn't let the suspension do its job. They are a lot of dough, though. I have some brand new OEM fronts if anyone wants them. I like the Group N tops because they just made the car feel more solid once again. My car inspires confindence in the corners now, I really notice it when I switch off from driving my beater for a long time.

I think your list is excellent for what you are trying to do. All the parts you listed will really help in the handling department and you shouldn't lose hardly any ride quality, but the car will handle better.

[THAWA]

professor with the agx's on 1 its the same valving as stock struts, 3 in the rear is the valving of gr-2's

The gr2's with stock springs do make the car feel overdamped. I'd suggest if you want gr2's to us rs springs, or just use the whole rs setup.

[BAC5.2]

$1300? What!?

We just did my buddies whole suspension, and he spent just under $800.

That's AGX's, SPT springs, GRP-N tophats, a Whiteline 18-22mm bar and a set of new, stock sway bar links.

You can buy used HD links from a WRX owner parting his car out for under $100.

That right there is under $900, and it's just about everything on that list.

Stock ride is overrated. If you want better handling, you are going to have to give a little. AGX's or GR2's on stock springs are going to feel overdamped, ESPICALLY with AGX's (which eliminates the point of getting the AGX's).

A set of springs, a set of AGX's, some Group N tops, and a nice rear bar will help handling a lot. And contrary to popular belief, you can have a good handling car that doesn't make your kidneys bleed. It won't ride like stock, but it will handle a TON better. You won't get a great handling car with stock ride ability.

[professor]

with the new suspension bushings at $140 plus the mentioned upgraded endlinks ($100 a set for good ones) we are getting very close to $1300

putting a grand worth of upgraded parts onto worn original suspension bushings makes the least sense of all, the stiffer components will shred the worn bushings in no time, and you'll have the whole thing apart again, or you'll be hearing lots of groans, moans and rattles.

I'm continually amazed at how many folks throw big $$$ at suspensions without fixing what is broke first. Bushings should be first, not last.

[scottzg]

There's a lot of strange information floating around in this thread.

As someone who has driven my car with new struts and springs on old topmounts and new topmounts, i will vouch for their making a difference in the feel of the car. I wouldn't call it a 250$ difference though.

AGX rates are as follows, directly from kyb:

KYB AGX
1 - Same as Factory ................................+00
2 -Same as GR2 .....................................+15
3 - 50% firmer than #2............................+72
4 - 30% firmer than #3............................+123

15% more dampening ain't piddlypoop. I would say most pentastars are more than that underdamped from factory. Suspension feel is a personal thing of course. FWIW "sport model" luxo cars ie mbz are exactly the same except for uprated struts.

In my experience, sticky rubber with crappy/old suspension is a little scary. The tires can generate forces that the struts can't keep in check and keep the body composed. If you're just going fast around freeway onramps, it's not such a big deal.

Strut towers deflect ~100th of an inch with stock(ish) suspension. Any hinged bar is not going to be able to absorb that. The towers deflect more with a more rigid suspension, and there is where you're going to see a benefit. Of course, a more rigid suspension is going to wear out an already old chassis even faster...

It looks like you're on the right track. The stiffer you go, the more old bushings and top mounts will be appearant.

Oh, swaybars. They change the handling character, and what's best on a track isn't necessarily best for a panic situation on the street. If you're happy with the driving dynamics, I wouldn't mess with it.

And finally, I'd like to take a moment to pimp the Suspension Information Compendium stickied at the top of the suspension forum.

[Brat4by4]

Strut towers deflect ~100th of an inch with stock(ish) suspension. Any hinged bar is not going to be able to absorb that. The towers deflect more with a more rigid suspension, and there is where you're going to see a benefit. Of course, a more rigid suspension is going to wear out an already old chassis even faster...

I'm confused a little by this. Are you talking about what the strut tower bar will do for the chassis? And an explanation of your comment on what a hinged bar isn't able to do. I'm just confused is all. When I put in my rear bar, it felt like the suspension could push down harder on the outside wheel... I don't know if that fits in with this info or not.

I had a sweet Cusco front strut tower that fit the AWIC and everything perfectly, but it had these stupid raised braces over the tower mounts that wouldn't let the hood close... doh! Of course I would love to seam weld the entire chassis, but I doubt that that will ever happen.

[BAC5.2]

with the new suspension bushings at $140 plus the mentioned upgraded endlinks ($100 a set for good ones) we are getting very close to $1300

AGX's = $380 Shipped
SPT springs = $200 Shipped
GRP N tops = $200 Shipped
Whiteline bar = $44 Shipped (Ebay)
Used Endlinks = >$100 (NASIOC part-out).

Even with the new suspension bushings, that comes to just over $1000. You can probably find the bushings for less on E-Bay. I got my GD Shifter bushing for $11 shipped.

But I do see where you are coming from, all new $1300 is what it would be. The springs my buddy got were on a special from Langston Subaru. And the stuff is for a GC, which is a bit more readily available than the Legacy stuff.

Speaking of bushings - What were the bushings from that you used? GC bushings? GD bushings?

[Subaru_Nation555]

AGX's = $380 Shipped
SPT springs = $200 Shipped
GRP N tops = $200 Shipped

are those prices for used items. Where can you get AGX's and N tops for that price?

Thanks for all the good info guys. You are directing me in the right direction

[scottzg]

I'm confused a little by this. Are you talking about what the strut tower bar will do for the chassis? And an explanation of your comment on what a hinged bar isn't able to do. I'm just confused is all. When I put in my rear bar, it felt like the suspension could push down harder on the outside wheel... I don't know if that fits in with this info or not.

Yea, basically, how it firms up the chassis. Strut towers only wiggle about 100th of an inch on modern vehicles. I'd love to post the article i got that from, but i can't seem to find it. Basically, though, someone calculated the cornering load one tire put on the strut assembly and figured out by tightening a wire attached to the strut tower until an equivalent force was on it, and measured the difference from tower to tower. It worked out to be pretty much nothing. I can see a few reasons why you would experience a greater difference:

you've got good suspension and tires that can exert more force on the towers
you've got a old chassis that has surely softened up, and probably wasn't as rigid as the test e36 in the first place
on a track, little things become huge!

Really, what i was getting at with that was that those ebay bars with the joints and bolts part way are too sloppy to make a difference, especially on a stock or 20% uprated suspension.

[BAC5.2]

I got the AGX price from Professor. Peddlerperformance or somewhere.

SPT springs were from Langston Subaru, on a sale (30% off).

The GRP N tops were from www.RaceCompEngineering.com $54 for each corner for GC mounts.

All parts are new. AGX's should be around 400 bucks anywhere you go.

[Brat4by4]

Phil, prices can't really be nailed down so resolutely considering shipping differences, connections, sales, e-bay auctions, etc. I have never seen brand new AGX's for the Legacy or WRX for anywhere near that price. But the argument is moot. I assembled my suspension setup for pennies on the dollar because I got lucky (only paid retail for the strut tops, which was bad enough ).

Yeah, comparing different chassis's doesn't really tell you much. And newer chassis are much more rigid, every car that comes out has like 483% more torsional rigidity than the previous car. The thing that I like about my cheap rear bar is the adjustable threads. It actually puts tension on the strut towers. No slack there.

Oh, and we have seemed to have forgotten underbars. These are sure to make a difference, the STi Spec C (or RA) and the USDM STi come with something similar to the Cusco type I front underbar. They keep your a-arms from wandering like the strut bar does for the strut towers.

[evolutionmovement]

Yeah, I preload my rear STB.

Steve

[Subaru_Nation555]

Ok, so once I reconsidered my budget, I have decided to go for the following:

KYB AGX struts, STi mounts and the whiteline swaybar. Springs and endlinks might come later, christmas maybe?

thanks for the info