dropped

[BAC5.2]

Yes, but initially, macpherson strut suspensions gain camber, THEN go positive.

A bigass bar would prevent it from going positive, but it would also prevent it from going more negative.

Going more negative is a semi-benefit of a macpherson strut suspension.

I think you'd just want a bar big enough to prevent the wheel from going to the positive area of the camber curve.

When you lower a car, a sway-bar upgrade is almost required for exactly the reason you (and I) said, to prevent the suspension from going to the positive camber zone.

Plus, big bars effectively increase spring rate and can over-power dampers, right? Which is another downside, because that means that under normal conditions you have to over-damp your springs to prevent bounciness while cornering hard. And overdamping is bad for launching.

[THAWA]

You would need a GIGANTIC bar for that to happen, like two inches or so.

You can still go positive with like a 24mm bar and stock height.

[BAC5.2]

Maybe on stock dead struts, but I can't imagine you'd be able to overpower a 24mm bar with some stiff springs/struts and stock height.

Plus, the positive camber zone is relative to the negative camber at start.

Until that point, you are just going less-negative (which still isn't good). As long as you stay more negative than you started, let the suspension travel that far.

Big bars can still cause under-damping while cornering, though. And that sucks all around. Have you ever launched AWD with over-damped struts? That's how you break axles.

[555BCTurbo]

Jakerages...

Larger front swaybar = understeer =

that = false

Big front bar is good, it doesn't increase understeer until you go past the limit of your tires, up until then it keeps the suspension in a better place as far as camber and roll go. So go as big as you can.

Here's a good read: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.p ... ostcount=4

That is essentially what I was getting at, but in fewer words...

I have, however, seen practical evidence that going too big in the front can cause the car to plow a bit, but there are also many factors that can contribute I suppose.

[skid542]

That's looks incredible!

[scottzg]

without knowing where in the suspension travel the car sits in a turn, or actually trying a bigger front bar, discussing the advantage of it is just mental masturbation. If it feels right, it probably is. Only worry i see is the car reacting strangely when you hit a bump in a corner.

I freakin love the look.

[BAC5.2]

My left lobe IS bigger than my right...

[AWD_addict]

Nice drop Jake, looks great!
Your car is only the 2nd I've seen with those rims, so they must be pretty pricey.

[Redlined]

A bigger front bar limits travel. extra lateral force is transfered to the softer rear. the rear soaks the lateral force by squatting on the suspension, and has the effect of lightening or lifting the inside front tire, reducing traction and causing understeer.

I think with Jakes adjustable rear bar he will be able to set up his rig just fine.

lower the nose another 1/2 inch and thats the look I want. love the rims. ((correction. raise the tail 1/2 inch))

Rollcenter?

[jamal]

Have you seen those roll center adjusters from trackmonkey racing? They're hott! We should get some.

I heard about them. Are they out yet?

And actually I don't think I'm low enough to cause problems. My control arms/lateral links are below horizontal. I should get a bullet cam and set it up to watch the suspension.

This whole big front bar thing always kind of troubled me. I understand why it works, but I don't really like the idea of just a big front bar. I think it would be more benifitial to keep the front and rear close to the same. Of course, a bunch of us have messed with our roll stiffnesses and roll centers so the same front bar would probably have different results.

[555BCTurbo]

My left lobe IS bigger than my right...

[Brat4by4]

You guys are all going about this in a much too simplistic way. You can discuss how one variable changes until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't matter if you don't include how other variables change also.

And for those that are so scared of big front sway bar only... just do it. It feels right. I drove that way for many many months. Understeer is not a problem if you don't drive in a way that induces it. Yank the wheel on a wet road and yes the quicker weight transfer will make the outside tire lose it, you pretty much had to try to make it understeer. I now have both sway bars on set to 20mm front and 22mm rear. That feels good, too.

I just had the car out on BeaveRun this friday. The car handled like a beast without even a hint of understeer, it just feels a little touchy with the bigger bars and STi suspension. If you were smooth with inputs it was very smooth in doing it. Jerk the wheel left and right and that is exactly what the car did, jump left then right. The sway bars take away that syrupy protection of roll time that the stock suspension has. Overall you can say that is a good thing.

[jamal]

Not quite what I was imagining, but they should be for sale any day now:

[THAWA]

Yeah it's quite the opposite of what I was expecting too. I was thinking it would be like the Zerosports where it was a complete balljoint, which I would like better, as that's one less thing to break, but hell this should work nicely. I just don't like how the through-bolt area isn't separated like the stock knuckle. I guess the metal deforms enough to make it cinch down on the balljoint, but I wouldn't have designed it like that.

[BAC5.2]

William -

Handling dynamics are very different between high-speed low-input turns, and slow-speed high-input turns. At the top of 1st gear, crank the wheel to the lock then quickly to the opposite lock while accelerating, and a huge fat FSB will help understeer quite a bit. I've done it.

At high-speeds, understeer is less noticeable and often mistaken for stability and not the tire-plowing horror that is so commonly associated with understeer at parking-lot speeds.

Have you ever driven a car that so abrubtly oversteers, it's almost impossible to go fast? It's not as fun as it may appear to be in Japan.

Here's a good factory example. The 350Z. The thing handles like butter at high speeds. Enter a turn at ridiculously fast speeds, and it'll stick through the turn with lots of steering input and marginal throttle. Take the same car, go through an auto-X course, and you run into a lot of tire-plow. It kinda sucks. But it's a fun car still because you can kick the ass out like crazy on-throttle. You can balance slow-speed plowing with the throttle, but that's a sketchy way to go through the course. I was lucky enough to be able to beat the shit out of several Z's when I worked at the dealership.

It's all about driving style, and situations.

[555BCTurbo]

Interesting info there Phil...

Never really thought about it that way

[jake15]

so i borrowed my brothers camera (pretty good camera, but still not what i want )

[HomeSlice]

like the red n clear tails-- i have to do that to my 90- your leg looks sweet. paint would work though- but it does not add hp or better handling.

[jake15]

like the red n clear tails-- i have to do that to my 90- your leg looks sweet. paint would work though- but it does not add hp or better handling.

thanks!! i was just talking about the paintwork this weekend too after i get my stockpile of goodies installed, the next thing i'm saving up for is a paintjob or just paint the front bumper, hood, rear bumper, and trunk. but it would be way cheaper to just do the whole car at once, and it would look amazing. unfortunatley paintwork is the one thing i'll have to pay full price for

[Yukonart]

Come up here some Sunday when you're not working and we'll do some photARs in Bothell . . . you know I've got teh lowdown on all the good spots.