Please explain this to Tristan

[tris91ricer]

Wow. 4 pages in less than 24hrs?!? You guys are maniacs, which is probably why this whole thing drives me f*n nutz!

Does convincing me win prizes? I've never seen so many people upset that they can't get me to shift my thinking and just agree with them. I'm really starting to lose interest in arguing with people now, as it looks like lots of you take it personally.

I can see the concensus hasn't been quite reached, although there have been some good points brought up, all of which boil down to. . . what?

Personal Preference.


I can understand if you're tracking your car, and wanting it to be a performance car, but at that point, I'd expect the car not to be stock, under the hood, hence the need for bigger brakes. Do you need to be making GOBS of power over stock for this to be worth it? Well, that's up to you.

I just see big brake kits on stock cars as ricey, based on my definition of 'rice' which includes advertising something you don't have. What do you think when you see big brake kits? Makes me think that car has already peaked its power limits for the stock brakes, and had to upgrade.

Can I at least win points for arguing the side that saves $3000 by NOT buying a 'factory Brembo this and that'?

Ok, so brakes turn forward motion --momentum-- into heat via friction material --the pads--, which is absorbed and disbursed by the rotor. I understand the surface area argument here, although it sounds like you guys are still teetering on it.
To me, it looks like cooling is an issue. Your brakes fade as the heat goes up, right? This means the rotor is getting hot, as it's not dispersing the heat correctly / enough, right? Even with slotted/drilled rotors, there's a point. How would one rig some NOS to cool their rotors?

[Yukonart]

Okay, fine, I understand what you guys are saying, you're right.

Now out of curiosity... if the WRX has a stopping distance of 123 feet, how is the STi able to stop at 110 feet?

Just hazarding a guess here:

Soft rubber compound, wider contact patch due to wider tire, longer contact patch due to larger diameter wheels, practically slick due to having almost no sipes whatsoever.

So tires basically. Now, the brakes are awesome, and they might help control things a bit better, but I think for the most part they do something different than help your braking distance on first application.

Stock rolling diameters of Imprezas, WRXs, STis, and even Legacies, are virtually the same. Larger wheels mean NOTHING in this respect, save a slightly wider contact patch.

Better tires. . . perhaps. Although, (and getting back to the point I made on page one) even with the comparitively SHITTY all-seasons I had on my car when needing to test my braking, I still stopped far quicker than most of your realize. I say tires mean less in this case.

And NO. The stock RE070s are not practically slicks. They are NOT R-compund tires, and thus DO NOT perform that way. Trust me, many people who track their STis even UPGRADE to R-compounds because the limits of the RE070s fall short.

[LaureltheQueen]

Okay, fine, I understand what you guys are saying, you're right.

Now out of curiosity... if the WRX has a stopping distance of 123 feet, how is the STi able to stop at 110 feet?

Just hazarding a guess here:

Soft rubber compound, wider contact patch due to wider tire, longer contact patch due to larger diameter wheels, practically slick due to having almost no sipes whatsoever.

So tires basically. Now, the brakes are awesome, and they might help control things a bit better, but I think for the most part they do something different than help your braking distance on first application.

Tires on the wrx tested(same people testing on the same track) were Tires : 225/45ZR17 Toyo T1-S If I remember correctly, that's the same tire size as the STi, no?

Besides, I thought that no brakes are able to overdrive stock tires...

[LaureltheQueen]

I just see big brake kits on stock cars as ricey, based on my definition of 'rice' which includes advertising something you don't have.

How is having big brakes advertising something that you don't have? Alot of people track their cars on stock engines. Oh no! God forbid they're satisfied with the power they put out!!!!

and Tristan, you calling a "performance" mod rice is a little beyond hypocritical, no?

[rallysam]

FYI - any time you see an STI rally racing (with a gabillion horsepower at triple digits speeds, doing long mountain descents while left foot braking) they are running DOWNgraded WRX size brakes because of rules and also because rally rubber doesn't fit around STI's monster brakes. It's true even of the WRC guys. And man, those brakes glow blazing orange! Now, granted, I am sure every component is "professional grade" for the WRC guys, but they are still WRX size which is interesting. I bet grassroots guys here just use regular old WRX brakes (no upgrade) - or stock Legacy turbo rotors for that matter.

[LaureltheQueen]

there's a difference between stock brakes and rally bred wrc brakes. If there weren't size limitations, what size do you think they'd be running?

[rallysam]

there's a difference between stock brakes and rally bred wrc brakes. If there weren't size limitations, what size do you think they'd be running?

Oh yeah, I agree totally. They probably use multi-million dollar stuff. I just thought that was really interesting when I learned it so I thought I would pass it along.

But, I still wager that there are a lot of grassroots US rally cars descending mountains at triple digit speeds with basically stock WRX rotors (upgraded pads no doubt). I could be wrong, but people run some ghetto rigs out there. Probably shouldn't try that at home

[IronMonkeyL255]

On tarmac rallies, they run larger brakes because they run larger wheels and lower profile tires.

On gravel rallies, they run smaller brakes because they are running smaller wheels with higher profile tires.

[Bheinen74]

Brakes are for whimps. Good downshifting will stop ya. lol

[scottzg]

the STi has much firmer suspension and more rear tuned bias, iirc. This allows the car to use its rear wheels to brake better, and makes for most of the difference.

Tris, almost all of us agree- you upgrade the brakes when you are overheating them, regardless of what has been done to the engine. Upgrading could be just pads, or it could be bigger rotors and stuff, depending on the pocketbook and needed results.

[BAC5.2]

The STi has a significantly better suspension than the WRX, and that is likely the reason for the 16 foot shorter stopping distance.

Given the same suspension, I'd imagine that the STi would actually stop almost identically to the WRX, and tires would add up to less than 1 foot of difference in stopping.

What the STI gives up in significantly increased pad surface area, it likely gains back in piston surface area. So I'd imagine that total force between pads and rotors, is fairly similar between the two cars. Simple math would be able to prove this for sure.

[jamal]

the STi has much firmer suspension and more rear tuned bias, iirc. This allows the car to use its rear wheels to brake better, and makes for most of the difference.

Tris, almost all of us agree- you upgrade the brakes when you are overheating them, regardless of what has been done to the engine. Upgrading could be just pads, or it could be bigger rotors and stuff, depending on the pocketbook and needed results.

Word. I have noticed a significant improvement in braking response since upgrading to STi take-offs. Also:

[AWD_addict]

I then refer to the Lotus Elise. The Lotus Elise has all of 109bhp,

You mean 190bhp for the Elise (US version).

And as for bigger brakes being ricey, they are functional, and thus not rice.
Seems that almost everyone in this thread agrees that they help brake operation some way.

[rallysam]

That photo rocks! How'd you do that? Runs through the mountains?

[jamal]

actually it's from when I worked at rim of the world rally. That was one of the faster cars at the top of del sur Saturday night. One of the few pictures I took up there, because it got pretty crazy with multiple cars coming in at the same minute at times. It was so cool watching all the lights flashing around in the mountains.

[THAWA]

I'll submit that if anyone locally would like to feel what a stock STi's "big brake" setup can do. . . they're more than welcome to come along for a ride. I think Laurel can already attest to the fact that it DOES, in fact, stop quite a bit quicker than almost any other car you'll encounter on the street.

This doesn't mean anything. That's like saying, if anyone would like to know what a turbo can do to an engine go drive a 90's caravan. If you wanted to make this sort of comparison you need to compare it to an equal car with different brakes. Since you won't find an STi with say Impreza L brakes you can't really make this comparison.

[LaureltheQueen]

I then refer to the Lotus Elise. The Lotus Elise has all of 109bhp,

You mean 190bhp for the Elise (US version).

And as for bigger brakes being ricey, they are functional, and thus not rice.
Seems that almost everyone in this thread agrees that they help brake operation some way.

the lotus i pulled the numbers from comes with 109bhp. that is the point i was making.

[LaureltheQueen]

you can however, find a wrx with STi suspension.

[LaureltheQueen]

ya know what, whatever guys. I'm entitled to my opinion, and I no longer give a fuck what you guys think. I'm done with this thread.

[Yukonart]

I'll submit that if anyone locally would like to feel what a stock STi's "big brake" setup can do. . . they're more than welcome to come along for a ride. I think Laurel can already attest to the fact that it DOES, in fact, stop quite a bit quicker than almost any other car you'll encounter on the street.

This doesn't mean anything. That's like saying, if anyone would like to know what a turbo can do to an engine go drive a 90's caravan. If you wanted to make this sort of comparison you need to compare it to an equal car with different brakes. Since you won't find an STi with say Impreza L brakes you can't really make this comparison.

Nope, but I could find a WRX with my coilovers and tires pretty damn easily for the sake of comparison.

[LaureltheQueen]

like in the driveway?

[Yukonart]

like in the driveway?

Indeed.

[THAWA]

Good, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. You can't just hop in one car, brake with it, then hop in a completely different car, brake with it, and say one is better or worse. When you compare two cars with virtually the same of everything except the brakes is when you can say which is better or worse.

Laurel, don't be offended that other people have different opinions.

[tris91ricer]

I don't even have a different opinion. . . !

I'm just saying, stock brakes are fine, until you're either working them hard enough by driving 1/10th, or are making more than stock power.


What are we all considering a 'brake upgrade', though? Big brakes, to me, are the Big Brake Kits that people buy. . . I wouldn't necessarily call an uprated model's OEM parts a big brake kit, per se.

[Yukonart]

I think the point Laurel was trying to make was this, Tristan .. .

. . big brake kits are a valid upgrade for some people, even without bumpinb-up their engine's power. They shouldn't be considered rice.