Please explain this to Tristan

[LaureltheQueen]

I'm clearly not getting through to him.

We were discussing ricers, and he brought up body kits, and UPGRADED BRAKES W/ STOCK ENGINES.

Here's a basic summary
[11:45] tris91legacy: these guys like their bodykits and big brakes on stock engine power.
[11:47] LaureltheQueen: big brakes are great
[11:47] tris91legacy: sure are.. when you need them, due to making more power.
[11:47] LaureltheQueen: big brakes are NEVER a bad thing to have
[11:47] LaureltheQueen: you're the biggest ricer ever
[11:48] tris91legacy: big brakes are unnecessary unless you're making enough power to where the stock brakes are next to dangerous.
[11:48] LaureltheQueen: incorrect
[11:48] tris91legacy: why?
[11:49] LaureltheQueen: so if i had brembos on my car, i'd be able to stop faster
[11:49] tris91legacy: ..and slide sooner.
[11:49] LaureltheQueen: if you suck at braking
[11:51] LaureltheQueen: if you have one foot on the gas and one on the brake, trying to stop, then that would help you, but if you do, then you're a moron

okay, you know what, the conversation is far too long for this...


anyway, Tristan believes that big brakes are completely useless unless you have the power to back them up.

I have tried hard, but just cannot get through to him, that if all factors were set the same(rotors, pads and tires) the 4piston STi brakes are going to be more useful than the 2 piston stock Tleg brakes.

[tris91ricer]

If the stock brakes were not equipped enough to handle the car in most stopping scenarios (based on weight, and potential of said vehicle) then they
A) Wouldn't have been put on the car to begin with.
and
B) The USDOT, NHTSA, w/e would at least remark about it, or ask to make changes for USDM models.

C'mon.. the stock brakes can't be THAT bad..
I still say there's no reason for big brake kits until you've got the power to back it up, regardless of being able to stop sooner for 'safety' reasons.

[tris91ricer]

Oh, and big brake kits are overpowered brakes that can enable the wheels to reach lockup point sooner, causing a slide. This of course gets into the tire realm, which, we agreed for the sake of debate, was zeroed out.

[THAWA]

He's right. The stock brakes are more than enough for a stock car. Adding brembos wouldn't necessarily make you stop any faster.

[LaureltheQueen]

that's incorrect

with the same good tires on every car that we'd theoretically be "testing", my stock brakes would likely not be able to stop my car as effectively as STi stock brakes. and guess what, the cars weigh the same.

under the same braking situations, the car with bigger brakes would be able to make use of the tires, whereas the car with smaller brakes would likely not be able to realize the full potential of their tires.

and the debate is about are they more necessary with more hp? I think not.

[tris91ricer]

Sure, but you're still coming down to tires, which brings the question:

Why upgrade brakes and not to ultimate tires?

You're saying it all comes down to the tires (which, in reality, it does) so then why pay for big brake kits?

(I'll argue this, even though I'll soon be putting turbo rotors (semi bigbrake) and wagon rear calipers on... )

[tris91ricer]

and the debate is about are they more necessary with more hp? I think not.

So wait.. making gobs of power over stock and keeping stock brakes is OK?

[tris91ricer]

haha, guys, she's actually pissed at me over this, too. It's rather funny, methinks. :p

[LaureltheQueen]

no. you should always upgrade brakes, but brakes are not a function of power.

Just because you don't have lots of power and have big brakes doesn't mean that you are a ricer. It means that you're safety conscious. I don't think that any of the people here with stock engines and wrx brakes are making stupid decisions.


Upgrading brake calipers and rotors is much like upgrading pads. You change out your pads to get better stopping. When you cannot change out anything more in a stock configuration, and still want better braking, you get bigger brakes.


Of course your brakes(and suspension) are only as good as your tires, and i'm not saying that tires are not important at all, shit, you know how I feel about tires. I'm not saying that tires are not important(we've been over this 3 times already in the IM...), they're probably one of the most important safety features in a car, but if you have amazing tires, and garbage justy brakes and 200k suspension, they're not going to be much more effective than bald re92s.

[LaureltheQueen]

Why upgrade brakes and not to ultimate tires?

so wait... we're no longer talking about horsepower vs brake size?

I was under the impression that your general argument was a car with little horsepower would never be able to make use of larger than stock brakes.

I then refer to the Lotus Elise. The Lotus Elise has all of 109bhp, yet it's rotors are only 11.1 inches in diameter, whereas the 05 forester has 165 hp, but smaller rotors(11 in front 9 in back). Now why would lotus put such large brakes on such a small car with so little horsepower? Perhaps because they perform better?

[LaureltheQueen]

haha, guys, she's actually pissed at me over this, too. It's rather funny, methinks. :p

no tristan, I'm frustrated with you over this. I've given you countless examples and scenarios, yet you're unwilling to use even a bit of rationality.

[12:09] LaureltheQueen: tristan, youre' a moron
[12:09] tris91legacy: thanks.
[12:09] LaureltheQueen: please stop having this conversation with me
[12:09] tris91legacy: whoa, why?
[12:09] tris91legacy: you getting heated?
[12:09] LaureltheQueen: you're not even willing to have this discussion with me in a rational way
[12:09] tris91legacy: geeez.
[12:09] tris91legacy: i'm arguing, that's why.
[12:09] tris91legacy: this is fun. no?
[12:09] LaureltheQueen: it's possible to be rational and still argue

[vrg3]

I'm confused. Which argument are you trying to make, Tristan?

A) Upgrading brakes before the engine is dumb because it's not possible to exceed the stock brakes' capabilities with a stock engine.

-or-

B) Upgrading the brakes is dumb because you should upgrade tires instead.

[Yukonart]

Tristan, my STi weighs a hefty 40 pounds less than Laurel's wagon. My engine puts out twice as much power, stock. My stock tires grip better than her stock ones would have. My stock brakes are gigantic, when compared to her stock turbo brakes.

Now why would Subaru put such gigantic Brembos on the STi?

Is it because it makes shitloads more power than Laurel's car? No.
Is it because it weighs more than Laurel's car? No.
Is it because the tires are substantially stickier (in the dry) than Laurel's car's? No.

I'll tell you why.

The STi is a performance trim of the WRX. It makes more power, yes. . . but it's intended for track (whether pavement or dirt) use right out of the box. The power doesn't necessitate larger brakes. . . UNLESS you plan to track the car. A good track car's brakes will be in balance with the engine's power.

Here's a scenario:

Let's say Joe's WRX can hit a top speed of 110 mph on the backstretch of some fictitious track. Not too bad, really. He can slow his car down with the stock brakes within the suggested braking zone just fine.

Now, let's take Art's STi, that could say hit a top speed of 135 mph on the same backstretch before reaching the suggested braking zone (which is the same distance to the first turn for both cars). Now, would you trust those same WRX brakes to slow down a car that's just as heavy, but going 25 mph FASTER, within the same distance? I sure as hell wouldn't.

The power rating of the engine has only so much to do with this comparison in that both cars want to use as little stopping distance as possible ON THE TRACK so they can achieve the best lap times possible. In daily driving, one can simply slow down sooner if their brakes aren't up to those standards, since people should not be racing on city streets. In this case, power from the engine plays NO ROLE in determining whether or not someone should have bigger brakes on their car. Speed limits and traffic signs do their job to tell people how fast to enter a turn.

Now, if someone wants to upgrade their brakes in the name of performance and safety, I say kudos. They don't need a faster car to benefit from the brake upgrades. It simply makes their car easier to stop . . . say in an emergency situation. Does this sound like a bad idea to anyone?

Tires. All things being equal, every car should have the best tires that they can use. Yes, they do assist in braking . . . but not as much as they do in turning. I put a set of all-seasons on my car last fall . . . and aside from lackluster turning (compared to my RE750s) the only ill-effect I experienced was a quick "chirp" from all four of them when some dipshit brake-checked me on the freeway. And I was STANDING on my brakes to avoid the bastard, too. I was actually quite impressed with the tires' ability to slow the car down as quickly as my summer tires.

What does all this mean? I'm sorry Tristan . . . your arguements, while valid in a different context, simply don't refute anything Laurel has explained to you about why bigger brakes are generally better for safety and performance.

[evolutionmovement]

The stock brakes in good condition are very effective, yes, but they are designed for shit 14" tires (on the N/As) and people who drive normal speeds. I have 16" rims with performance tires now and regularly excede 100 and have to slow quickly for cops or for exit ramps. I also left foot brake and the stock brakes overheat too easily. Before I got cryo rotors I would warp a set of rotors every 6 mos or less due to the way I drive. Having to replace the fronts anyway, I decided to upgrade to WRX units (+ they'll be ready for more power if I ever get the chance) and I have no regrets. From speeds 80+ they fade MUCH less than the stock sized brakes. Sure they can lock up easier, but that's why I wouldn't recommend them for people who can't drive (panic brakers). Most of you out there likely have ABS also, so the lock up issue doesn't apply. As far as performance goes, being able to brake later allows you to sustain a higher speed or accelerate longer on the straightaways. I will contend that I could conceivably take on an equally driven full-compression N/A with stock brakes because of this. I could also make more repeated high-speed stops without fade.

Steve

[dzx]

Damn, a set every six months? Sounds like you would be fun to ride shotgun with.

[scottzg]

I'm gonna assume that we are all using the same pads and same wheels adn tires

I'll try to hit as many things as i remember while reading this thread.

Everything art said is accurate.

Everything steve said is accurate, but i feel it necessary to clarify that the wrx brakes lock up sooner because they throw the bias way forward, not because they're grabby or something.

Tristan has the right ideas, and im just gonna say a few things because i think i can explain better.
1) big brakes often move bias forward, so they are more likely to lock up sooner. If the brake change moves the bias forward, braking distances are going to be worse, even if heat capacity and venting is improved. The extra bias can actually hurt fade resistance if the extra heat generated up front exceeds the extra thermal capacity.
2) if you're driving agressively in a street car, stock power can overwhelm stock brakes. Most street cars have brakes that are big enough for 1 big panic stop and a little extra, this is plenty for most drivers to even enjoy a little spirited fun. There's no reason to upgrade stock brakes if you never touch overheating them, and if you only occasionally do its prolly best to just upgrade the pads because...
3) ginormous brakes that are correctly biased but have more thermal capacity than the car could ever possibly need are a performance hindrance; they are extra unsprung weight and extra crap that needs to be rotated by the engine. These tradeoffs are worthwhile on a performance vehicle which will have stiffer suspension to battle the unsprung weight and needs to be able to do repeated stops.

Laurel, sad to say, is a bit off. if the sti and tleg have the same suspension, wheels, and tires, i think the tleg would outbrake the sti, due to weight distribution. The sti would have more fade resistance, but it wouldnt make any difference in braking distances.
More pistons add feel, bigger rotors add thermal capacity, but since any old brake can lock up a tire, and neither system is gonna overheat in 1 stop, all that matters is how effective each tire can be. the wagon is more rear heavy, so it can better work those rear tires.

The people with wrx brakes and no return to stock bias are kind of making a stupid decision, in a panic stop or trail braking, they have marginalized their braking distance, and are wasting thermal capacity in the front. I am one of these people to a certain extent, and will be fixing as soon as i get around to it.

the elise has 170hp and is a performance model, and thus has a need for more thermal capacity than the forester.

I think that covers everything.

[IronMonkeyL255]

More pistons add feel, bigger rotors add thermal capacity, but since any old brake can lock up a tire, and neither system is gonna overheat in 1 stop, all that matters is how effective each tire can be.

You beat me to this point. I still remember the argument over on the Maxima forums about cross-drilled/slotted rotors.

The job of the brake system is to turn forward motion into heat energy via the friction medium(brake pads). The rotors provide a heat sink for all this thermal energy being produced by friction. Once braking is over, the discs radiate all this heat out to the surrounding air. The venting in the discs aids this by providing more surface area.

Larger than stock brakes really just have the ability to store more heat and a larger contact area with the friction medium.

I really don't know what point I'm trying to make, except that upgrading the brakes is good. Not entirely necessary unless you do lots of racing or mountain runs, though.

[scottzg]

Larger than stock brakes really just have the ability to store more heat and a larger contact area with the friction medium.

This doesn't really matter much

I really don't know what point I'm trying to make, except that upgrading the brakes is good. Not entirely necessary unless you do lots of racing or mountain runs, though.

yup

[IronMonkeyL255]

Larger than stock brakes really just have the ability to store more heat and a larger contact area with the friction medium.

This doesn't really matter much

It does matter, but not most of the time. You generally aren't going to exceed the thermal capacity of the stock braking system unless road racing or on a mountain run.

[scottzg]

Larger than stock brakes really just have the ability to store more heat and a larger contact area with the friction medium.

This doesn't really matter much

It does matter, but not most of the time. You generally aren't going to exceed the thermal capacity of the stock braking system unless road racing or on a mountain run.

hi, im a moron. i read larger than stock pads.

[IronMonkeyL255]

Eh..... Stuff happens.

I love when people argue that tires don't affect braking.

[skid542]

I don't want to get too deep in all this but I will say - upgrading my rears to nice turbo rotors with agressive pads drastically shortened my 60-0, and within two weeks of the upgrade were the reason a cat is still alive. My bias has changed considerably and the front needs some help to bring the balance back forward some. But nothing else changed on my car when I upgraded my brakes and the test was on the same strip around the same temps.

[rallysam]

I don't think brake upgrades have anything to do with power, it has to do with how you drive it.

If you run road courses, brake repeatedly from 100mph and have therefore experienced brake fade, then you need a brake upgrade. And yes, you can get in that situation with with a stock motor!

If you are just talking about slamming your brakes once in an emergency situation, or if you are talking about any kind of low-speed competition like autocross, then give me a "break". The stock brakes will have no problem locking up all four wheels, so clearly they have plenty to get the job done (no matter how much power you have, no matter what kind of tires you have).

[Legacy777]

I don't have time to go into everything. Bottom line is there are so many variables. You really can't just give a cookie cutter answer. The points about the way people drive, bias, pads, etc are good ones. But like I said, there's not a cookie cutter answer.

I will say though that you'd be surprised what the stock brakes can do.....even on a n/a legacy sedan when you have really good pads. Temps will be higher, but if the pads are capable of operating at those temps, you're fine.

[Flip_x]

Big brakes are good.

think of a suv with 22" rims. the stock brakes are only ment for 15" rims.... so the added weight would kill the stock brakes faster than it would if u upgraded to bigger ones.. and the stoping distance goes longer .. so big brakes are good.. thank you haha