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Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:49 am

They cost more to buy. You're still burning gas. Batteries eventually go to shit. You can't toy with them like our Legacies. Imagine the price of a hybrid 1 ton pickup. Would it even be feasable, or would a bio diesel setup be cheaper?

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:50 am

Why does cost have to be the metric by whch hybrids are judged? Their fuel saving benefit isn't just about spending less, it's about using less fuel and thus stringing our supply along for longer. If every vehicle in the US were a hybrid, think about how much gas we'd save... sure, it's not going to happen, but making even a few vehicles hybrids will add up over time, especially when they're large ones.

Biodiesel by itself isn't a great answer because it costs a fair amount to produce, but combine biodiesel and hybrid technology in, say, a city bus, and suddenly both start to make sense.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:52 am

If all cars on the road from today were suddenly hybrids, we'd be where we are today as far as consumption in just a couple years.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:55 am

Richard wrote:If all cars on the road from today were suddenly hybrids, we'd be where we are today as far as consumption in just a couple years.

I'm not sure I understand this statement

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:57 am

I think he means that because consumption is rising, hybrids wouldn't make a big difference... except they would, because if consumption were to rise, you'd have an even bigger amount of fuel-saving from going with hybrids assuming the same percentage of improvement.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:58 am

oh I see...with the increase in people driving...yeah, that makes sense. But think what it would be without hybrids.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:01 am

It's a good idea, and I'm sure the technology will improve over the next couple years. But in the end, all it is is a band-aid.

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:03 am

Richard wrote:But in the end, all it is is a band-aid.

Well, yeah, we have to make some lifestyle changes too. But we're not going to find an energy source that works as well as fossil fuels for transportation purposes, so we're just going to have to keep sticking band-aids on.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:12 am

Hybrid scooters would be a good way to cut fossil fuel usage. But scooters are like fat chicks. They're fun to ride 'till your friends see you.

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:16 am

Richard wrote:But scooters are like fat chicks. They're fun to ride 'till your friends see you.

LOL.

Then again, I don't get a lot of street cred from driving an old station wagon that I got from my grandparents...

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:16 am

wiscon_mark wrote:they're not cost effective, is what I think he's referring to. by the time you make up the extra cost of the vehicle in fuel savings, you will probably have to buy a new battery, as they have short lives...most of the time out of warranty, and they're EXPENSIVE.

Not viable for anyone who can't afford a battery replacement!

Not to mention the electric motors only function below 30mph.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:19 am

But you can outrun a dog chasing you. At least your wagon doesn't have woodgrain sides.

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:19 am

Splinter wrote:Not to mention the electric motors only function below 30mph.

Not true... in fact, one of the tips that a Toyota powertrain engineer gave in an interview is when you're driving a Prius and accelerating up to speed on a highway, let up on the throttle as you reach cruising speed and then push it down again. More often than not, the car will switch over to electric only mode.

Disclaimer: I've never tried this myself because I've never driven a Prius... I just read it on Autoblog.

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:20 am

Richard wrote:But you can outrun a dog chasing you. At least your wagon doesn't have woodgrain sides.

Sweet, that should be my next mod!

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:21 am

Hybrid cars are more of a feel-good environmentalist thing than anything actually useful.

Conserving oil-based products is useless. There is a finite supply of oil on the planet, whether it takes us 30 years or 90 years to go through it, once it's gone it's gone.

These are the strikes against hybrid cars as I see it, both from an economy and environmental point of view

1. Much higher initial cost
2. Fuel-saving motor is only in effect during extremely low-velocity situations. Highway driving is not effected.
3. High cost of battery replacement
4. High toxicity of battery disposal (heavy metals amundo)
5. The feeling that you are doing something good by buying a so-called 'green' car will reduce your feeling of obligation to other environmental causes. "I dont need to conserve electricity, I drive a Prius"

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:23 am

Imagine the resale value of a 5 year old hybrid. People won't buy something that they'll have to stick $5,000 worth of batteries into unless its really dirt cheap. And replacing the electric motors has to be a little more complicated than doing your brakes. Back to the dealer to spend more big $$$.

The price of being cool......

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:23 am

thefultonhow wrote: More often than not, the car will switch over to electric only mode.

That doesn't sound exactly like an overwhelming victory for hybrids to me.

So you may have a 70/30 chance, if you remember to drop and reapply the throttle, of kicking over into electric mode.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:25 am

You know what's much, much more effective than hybrids?

Carpooling.
Public transportation.
Moving somewhere with a shorter commute (possibly close enough to bike).

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:27 am

As I said, though, where hybrids make the most sense is in heavy-duty applications. UPS just bought a crapload of hybrid delivery trucks; a major city (I forget which one) is now buying hybrid buses, which raise fuel economy significantly. Hybrids are a good idea in passenger cars, but not as effective as in heavy vehicles.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:28 am

My city uses hybrid buses.

It is a good idea for them, since they spend a long time idling and in the 0-30mph zone where hybrids really kick ass.

Not to mention frequent stops, for that regenerative brake goodness.

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:29 am

Splinter wrote:You know what's much, much more effective than hybrids?

Carpooling.
Public transportation.
Moving somewhere with a shorter commute (possibly close enough to bike).

I agree with that 100% -- furthermore, if 50% of commuters carpooled or rode mass transit, imagine how many fewer cars would be on the road during rush hour? Instant solution to traffic jams and the accompanying waste of fuel and pollution.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:29 am

Carpooling - let's make our morning commute even longer.
Public transportation - doesn't and can't run everywhere. Imagine taking a pickup sized load to the bus stop.
Moving - people won't even move out of the path of a hurricane. What says they'll move to save gas when they can't even save themselves?

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:36 am

Richard, these are not be-all and end-all solutions. They are reduction methods that EVERYONE can take advantage of.

You can't say that because you cant take the bus every day, that the bus is useless.

I take the bus whenever I can. Im working on carpooling some days, even though I can't every day. Im moving into the city hopefully this summer.

The problem I find with both parties, is that they're unwilling to compromise, or find partial solutions. Wind power can't replace all the coal fire plants, like the hippies want, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt put any wind farms into place.

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:36 am

Richard wrote:Carpooling - let's make our morning commute even longer.
Public transportation - doesn't and can't run everywhere. Imagine taking a pickup sized load to the bus stop.

Carpooling does require a few small sacrifices -- but people need to be willing to make those sacrifices. As for public transportation, it's not viable 24/7, but for simple things like your morning/afternoon commute, it's useful.

My dad lives in Baltimore and commutes down to DC -- so he drives to a train station in West Baltimore and takes it down there. It takes him a little longer but it's worth it both in terms of fuel-saving (and savings of wear-and-tear) and in terms of stress relief. Before he worked at this job (in a suburb on the MD side) he worked at a similar one in Northern Virginia that wasn't accessible by mass transit. He put 70,000 miles on our Forester in the first year we had it, and the hour-and-45-minute commute around the DC Beltway and up/down I-95 in rush hour was extremely stressful. Now, he only has to drive for about 15 minutes each way, and gets to read, listen to music, and sleep for the rest of the time.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:42 am

What about clean coal technology?

Didn't say the bus was useless. It's inefficient as far as time goes. When you put in a 12 hour workday, who want's to take 4 busses to get home? I thought that's why we got cars when we got old enough to have one. And when nobody's on the bus, or maybe one or two people, how much energy are you saving?

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