Choosing the right pump for your air/water intercooler

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:55 am

It would be helpful to know the flow rates of the stock pump at both speeds.

Personally I think the magnetically driven impeller design to be better for this situation. Ive seen very inexpensive units, sometimes less than that of a standard pump.

For example I was looking at this pump (scroll to the very bottom)
http://www.hopkins-carter.com/catalog/F ... rPumps.htm
Bait Sentry Livewell Pumps
5 inch by 8 inch flowing 13 gpm for 65$!

The requirements I can think of would be continious use, 12VDC, physical dimensions and the type of fittings.
I know others must have gone through this. Here is one page I found http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gavinp/airwater.htm

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:14 am

Maybe we could do a little math on this...

Figure out how many gallons of water your system will hold.

Then figure out how long a typical full-throttle run from 0 to 80 or whatever would take, roughly.

You'd want the coolant to circulate one complete cycle in about that time, right? So that during the whole run you're getting cool water? So divide the capacity by the 0-80 time and that gives you some idea of the flow you want.

Unless it actually works out to be more efficient to keep the water flowing and allowing it to recirculate... that would require a very efficient pair of heat exchangers...

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:32 am

That makes sense. Problem is that Im still figuring the amount of water needed for the system and where I can fit the resovoir.

Also since the resovoir mixes cool and warm water it wont be a complete curculation. At the moment Im guessing my calculations to be 1 gallon of water. Dont we also have to figure the amount of back pressure to get the right amount of flow?

I sent an email to Jabsco
"Our model 59500-0012 is a mag drive circulating pump designed for intercooler applications in over the road vehicles.

The pump is designed for 12 vdc use and is not setup to run at a reduced rate. Flow is typically 3.9 gpm at 4' of head."
Running a google search for this actually turns up many Syclone/Typhoon users with this pump http://www.autoperformanceengineering.c ... absco.html

It is also used to run coolant for electric vehicles
http://www.metricmind.com/water.htm

Lotus Elan too
http://www.lotuselancentral.com/commonparts.htm

Some specs
Rated for over 200 degree water
Less than one pound
2500 hour life (at an average speed of 40mph thats 100k miles!)
Most important, Magnetic drive meaning NO SEALS!!

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:34 am

ciper wrote:Problem is that Im still figuring the amount of water needed for the system and where I can fit the resovoir.

Ah... I was hoping other constraints would have fixed the capacity prior to the calculation.

Also since the resovoir mixes cool and warm water it wont be a complete curculation.

That's true, but it can get close if you put the inlet at the top and the outlet at the bottom.

The Liberty/Legacy RS factory intercooler setup didn't have a reservoir at all, did it?

At the moment Im guessing my calculations to be 1 gallon of water.

Huh, really? I would have thought that just the intercooler, radiator, and piping would be close to a gallon already.

Dont we also have to figure the amount of back pressure to get the right amount of flow?

I don't know that much about pump ratings... I do know that the factory service manuals specify fuel pump output at a given pressure, so I think you're right.

But in this case the system isn't pressurized, so the backpressure may be negligible at the relevant rates.

"The pump is designed for 12 vdc use and is not setup to run at a reduced rate. Flow is typically 3.9 gpm at 4' of head."

Hmm... 4' of head... does that mean with the pump at the bottom of a 4-foot-tall column of water? Maybe that's a measure of the pressure.

Mag drive is awesome... and given that this thing was engineered for air/water intercoolers, maybe you should use it and then figure out reservoir capacity based on that, with math similar to that above.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:08 am

"At the moment Im guessing my calculations to be 1 gallon of water."

I should phrase that to be an additional gallon of water, I was referring to the resovoir itself.

mikec · Post by **mikec** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:09 am

vrg3 wrote: Hmm... 4' of head... does that mean with the pump at the bottom of a 4-foot-tall column of water? Maybe that's a measure of the pressure.

Pretty much!

Brat4by4 · Post by **Brat4by4** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:39 am

Well, I have the 18510-0020 Jabsco and it is not magnetic drive but flows a whole heck of a lot more (I don't know if this is good or bad). These are used on a lot of air-water intercoolers also.

http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfoApp/servl ... peId=JMGCR

This is the Jabsco site and lists both of these models. Are there any major cons to my pump? It came listed with gpm's for all different kinds of amperages, so it is variable. I just would have to know how to control the amperages (VR?, hint hint

)

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:33 am

Brat4by4 wrote:It came listed with gpm's for all different kinds of amperages, so it is variable.

That's odd. Normally you control the voltage supplied to a motor rather than the current.

Can you find this amperage/gpm list online, or maybe scan it in?

I just would have to know how to control the amperages (VR?, hint hint :wink: )

Typically the amperage (current) is determined by load on the motor, and voltage is controlled, like I said... Current control is a little complex.

Can you point me to any more info on this pump's applications?

Brat4by4 · Post by **Brat4by4** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:45 am

Performance (Nominal 12 VDC System)

Amps -- Ft. of Water -- GPM
8.0 -- 02 -- 15
7.0 -- 06 -- 11
6.3 -- 10 -- 5.5
5.3 -- 13 -- Shutoff

makes no sense to me, this is straight out of the book that came with it.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:44 pm

Hmm... I think the independent variable in that chart may be the "feet of water" column. The height of the water column would control how easy it is for the pump to do its job, thereby controlling both the current drawn and the amount of flow?

But... hmm... That's weird, because the shutoff is at a high level of water.

I think you should ask for clarification from the manufacturer... It's odd, because ciper's pump is not meant to be underdriven at all.

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:49 pm

theres an overflow tank underneath the intercooler for when the coolant/water gets hot, i think the aussie pump flows about 15 litres per minute and thats suited for a 3/4 sized front heat exchanger, a full sized heat exchanger should have a 20ltr/min pump, its very important not to go too big or the coolant/water won't have enough time to get to optimum temperature

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:56 am

20 Lpm = 5.28 Gpm

15 Lpm = 3.96 Gpm

So the unit I proposed is good for what Rsstiboy calls "a 3/4 sized front heat exchanger"

What is a 3/4 size?

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:52 am

Is 3/4 size the stock heat exchanger on the RS's?

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:05 pm

its actually about an inch or 2 shorter than the radiator and about 3/4 the length- a really stupid design if you ask me. I can take photos of it out of the car as I now have a FMIC

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:46 pm

Jabsco got back to me, the 59500 pump is the largest magenetic drive available. The next step would be a 18510-0020 which is 15gpm and usually used for engine coolant pumps like on Boss Hoss motorcycles

Opie · Post by **Opie** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:05 pm

What all do I need to install an air-to-water in my car? Intercooler, pump, piping, tank, brackets what else?

I'm looking at one like this:

Anybody have a picture of one of these installed on a Legacy? Is this a good choice or is something like this better/easier to do:

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:47 pm

boostjunkie's got an intercooler similar to the air/air one there. I did too for a while but had to remove it when the braided hose I used ate through a coolant line.

It's pretty easy to fit. What I did was cut off the mounting tab from the driver side so it would clear the coolant filler bottle. I used a longer-than-stock hose to go between the intercooler and the throttle body, pushing it further away from the bottle. I relocated the igniter to my passenger side strut tower by making an extension cord.

In order to keep the coolant line between the bottle and turbo safe, I moved it. What I did was cut the little metal holding the two coolant banjo fittings together on the turbo, so I could rotate the top one 45 degrees towards the back of the car. I cut a notch in my turbo chimney to clear the new position of the hose. 'course, this was after I'd removed the intercooler and I still haven't put it back on, but I did do a quick test-fit and it looked like it would be fine.

You have to cut the plastic piping that goes between the turbo and the intercooler and replace it with some hose, since the angle is wrong for the stock USDM turbo. Then you just move the blowoff valve over (it connects to the fitting on that plastic pipe); I stuck it directly into the stock pre-compressor pipe and got a little hose to go between it and the intercooler pipe.

Aside from the water plumbing, I would expect the air/water unit to install similarly.

mikec · Post by **mikec** » Sun May 01, 2005 2:06 pm

Gonna bump this thread with the following...

I emailed someone thats been using an AWIC on a built up WRX a while back. He said the Jabsco 59500-0012 is a bit loud, and that it didn't move enough for their application.

The part I'm concerned with is the noise comment. Anyone actually get one running in their car yet, and is able to comment on the noise?

He mentioned using a Johnson pump that moves 6.4gpm! I'm trying to get the part number.

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Sun May 01, 2005 5:51 pm

I had one on my 92. I can hear it but it's not loud or anything like that. It's also not mounted right so it rubs against the battery tray and that makes it louder.

I got it from a place that sells typhoon parts. Not sure the manufacture or model #.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun May 01, 2005 9:15 pm

You can get a bilge pump that does 1100 gph (18.3 gpm). That will be loud, though.

Steve

mikec · Post by **mikec** » Sun May 01, 2005 10:07 pm

Haha! Yeah, I don't want anything that crazy. Was just wondering if the Jabsco was actually annoyingly loud. A small whir from the engine bay isn't that bad... If I've gotta turn up the radio to cover it tho, that'll kill the fun of listening to the turbo spool

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Wed May 04, 2005 3:21 pm

I found the place i got my pump from after a little searching.
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/
I got the Johnson C030P5-1 because it was cheaper.

Now it's out of stock. It's not too loud at all so I wouldn't think the new Johnson pump would be.
The Jabsco pump is used in Mercedes so I bet it's quiet. And If you are a real cheap ass try to find out what year/model it came on and go JY diving.

mikec · Post by **mikec** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:24 am

Just ordered a CM30P7-1 from them. I highly recommend this place! Placed my order at 8pm Eastern, got a reply not 5 minutes ago saying it was being sent out. They use USPS Ground Express when shipping to Canada, because they know that Fedex and UPS are more expensive.

He even lowered the declared value (and the cost on the in-box receipt) on his own initiative, so that the duty would be less. I didn't even think to ask about that when I placed my order.

Also replied very quickly to a question I had about shipping.

I'll stick a review of the pump up when I get it installed.

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:00 am

let us know how things go when you get it

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Fri May 20, 2005 2:30 pm

It's going to go great, that's just the newer model of the one I had. I also ordered one for my new AWIC so I can tell you all how not loud it is.

legacycentral bbs

A forum for 89-94 BC-BF(BJ) Legacy Owners and Fans

Choosing the right pump for your air/water intercooler

Choosing the right pump for your air/water intercooler