How to build it up?

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:45 am

I recently got my 94 Turbo Sedan (5-speed. Yea, I'm stoked too.)

I've had a few plans, and I want everyone to let me know what they think, and offer any suggestions.

I have a plan of running around 15psi or so.

Here is my idea:

TD04, stock WRX turbo (I hear it can be kind of tough to get this to work. Are there any better options, or does anyone know how to work it out?)

SAAB 900 TMIC

HKS Catless down-pipe

TurboXS Turbo-back exhaust (I have a video of a WRX with this setup and it sounds MEAN. EXACTLY what I am looking for)

I'll probably run a MBC unless I can get a good deal on an EBC.

Gauges will be EGT, Oil Pressure, and Boost.

I'm not sure what else I need though. Any one have any input? I am completely new to boost (I've driven turbo cars, but this is the first I've owned).

Can anyone give me a list of everything I will need to safely run 15psi? Durability is key. When I say everything, I mean everything. From the turbo, to the intercooler, to everything.

How much am I looking to spend (using used equipment)?

How much custom work am I looking to do?

Thanks everyone!

eastbaysubaru · Post by **eastbaysubaru** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:16 am

The HKS downpipe is a piece of crap IMHO. I would look for a used bellmouth or semi-divorced design. The wastegate gases on the HKS dp run straight into a steel plate. Not a very good design.

-Brian

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:42 am

Thanks for the info! Anything else you could help me with?

I am a boost newbie, but I'm trying

Dizzy · Post by **Dizzy** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:39 pm

I'm sure the TD04-L swap can (and has) been done. However, the inlet on the compressor side of the wrx turbo doesn't have the elbow like the VF11 (your turbo). The intake piping on the wrx runs under the #1 & #3 intake manifold runners. Hence, no elbow. It's a PITA to deal with, but it is an improvement over our style of intake plumbing.

So...to use a wrx turbo, you will need to do some custom plumbing. Of course, how much depends on what type of intercooler you want to run. Keep in mind that the 'clocking' of the turbos is different as well. That is the position of the compressor side in relation to the turbine side (and visa-versa). The compressor outlet on the TD04 is parallel to the ground, while the VF11 is at an ~45 degree upward angle. Coolant and oil lines should fit. AC lines can stay, but may have to be re-routed if you do an IC.

There are a couple things you should think about doing before modding the car. Stuff like plugs, wires, fuel filters, air filter, etc. Also check stuff like your PCV valve, EGR and O2 sensor. Basically, get the car running well before you start modding it. That way, if (when) it acts up, you can eliminate the aformentioned items as possible causes. Diagnosing a problem is hard enough even when your not dealing with aging equipment. I'm not too sure how many miles are on the car, but check the front cam seals & head gaskets to make sure they're not leaking. ( I was lazy and had a mechanic do mine.

)

After you do the basic tune up stuff, intake & exhaust are excellent places to start. WRX downpipes will fit at the turbo, but your stock center section of the exhaust will have to be modified. From what I understand, the gains as a result of a downpipe are noticable. I was also told that headers help the car.

I would go for all the low hanging fruit (tune-up items, intake, exhaust) first and see where you want to go from there. You can definately do turbo swaps (I hear the TD05 is a good option) and add an intercooler, but I would recommend familiarizing yourself with the car before you go balls out. Also, I think 15psi is about where you should be thinking about fuel system upgrades.

Check out: http://www.flat4engineering.com/main/index.htm

They're a good resource for anything scooby. Talk to Joe. He can expand on most of what I said. Cheers.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:05 pm

Dizzy - Thanks for the info!

One of the very first things I want to do is an IC. Not really a performance enhancement thing, but more for peace of mind knowing that the internals aren't getting cooked.

I figure since I'm doing the IC, I might as well go the full-nine and get her all done, you know?

I definately will be swapping all plugs, wires, and fluids as soon as I get the car, just so I know when all of that was done. I'll check the gaskets as well to make sure everything is copesetic.

What turbo is most commonly swapped that will produce the gain's I'm looking for?

Fuel upgrade meaning injectors, or meaning pump?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:52 pm

Dont waste time with the WRX turbo. Its too small for all the trouble. Stay at 13 psi until you get a bigger unit.

JasonGrahn · Post by **JasonGrahn** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:27 pm

BAC5.2 wrote:TD04, stock WRX turbo (I hear it can be kind of tough to get this to work. Are there any better options, or does anyone know how to work it out?)

It's not extremely difficult if you know what you're doing. If you're new, stay away from it until you know more or find someone else to swap it for you.

SAAB 900 TMIC

Piece of crap. There are too many used WRX top mounts out there that are much better and easier to find. Sure, you have to move the coolant tank, but that's a small price to pay.

HKS Catless down-pipe

Get a full turboxs setup or *shudder* even a vishnu downpipe is great (but that's ALL you should get from vishnu).

Can anyone give me a list of everything I will need to safely run 15psi? Durability is key. When I say everything, I mean everything. From the turbo, to the intercooler, to everything.

There are 3 things to choose from when you are modifing your car: Speed, price, and reliability. Seeing as how you want to run 15 psi, it sounds like you want speed. You also say reliability is your cornerstone. However, to contradict these, you want to spend as little money as possible. Speed with reliability are costly. Speed with low cost typically ends up with a blown up engine. Relibility with low cost sacrifices speed. Follow?

How much am I looking to spend (using used equipment)?

Spend as much as it takes to get the setup you want. BUT research as much as possible first so you don't make simple mistakes that may cost you extra in the long run.

How much custom work am I looking to do?

With your list, not much.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:33 pm

good point. I guess I'd like reliability and speed. I have some money to play with, but the more that goes into the engine, the less that goes into the suspension (at least for now).

JasonGrahn · Post by **JasonGrahn** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:35 pm

If you plan on modifying the suspension, go ahead and do that first. a properly suspended car is all around more fun to drive then a car with sloppy suspension and more power (in my opinion).

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:24 pm

^ I agree. My N/A wagon is a blast to drive and on the twisties I've walked away from BMWs, Hondas, and Integras. I just have GR-2s with Yoko 195/60 15s. These cars are very well balanced and my only issue is putting power down (fwd and there isn't much). I'd wait on the engine until I've saved up to do it right (which is what I am doing). These cars are reliable so saving up shouldn't be too bad.

Steve

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:29 pm

I'll be playing with the big boys, not hondas and integras. I've got a friend with a turbo beetle w/ 26mm sways, and a lowered 99Taurus SHO with 24mm front and 26mm rear bars.

Both will also out-power me.

I'll probably flat out do suspension first (~$1k), and then wheels/tires (about another $1k). Then I'll start pooling parts for the engine work.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:36 pm

You consider a turbo beetle and an SHO the big boys

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:40 pm

don't waste your time on a TD04, there are heaps of unwanted VF12, VF10,VF8 turbos of JDM Liberties/legacys that will suit your car, I have just swapped my VF12 for a TD05. you didn't mention do you have a 2.2ltr or a 2ltr?

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:49 pm

ciper wrote:You consider a turbo beetle and an SHO the big boys

Well, both pull more than .9 on the skid pad. The beetle outpowers me by a good bit, and the SHO puts more to the ground that I do to the crank.

I would consider them big-boys in the realm of sleepers, yes.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:51 pm

rsstiboy wrote:don't waste your time on a TD04, there are heaps of unwanted VF12, VF10,VF8 turbos of JDM Liberties/legacys that will suit your car, I have just swapped my VF12 for a TD05. you didn't mention do you have a 2.2ltr or a 2ltr?

2.2L Legacy Turbo.

kelley · Post by **kelley** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:59 pm

here's what my current set up is.
ej22t
ihi vf23
stromung turbo back
hks headers, blitz fmic,
and an autronic ecu. at 15 psi it makes around 400 crank hp.
I would recomend at least 550 cc injectors.
i hit full boost by 2500 rpm. hope thathelps you some.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:13 am

400 crank HP on 15psi!?

Your setup sounds pretty good though.

A few questions though:

How much was the ECU and how difficult is it to keep it in tune?

Where did you get the turbo and how much?

Stromung was my first choice in exhaust, but I was curious how much you paid?

What kind of Injectors? Any recomendations? I'll probably run a Walbro fuel pump when the need for more fuel is required.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:23 am

Well, if 15 psi is 400 crank with your mods then Ill soon have a 600Hp legacy...

kelley · Post by **kelley** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:28 am

the autronic smc is about $1300.
is it dificult to keep in tune?
no. when you change any perameter in the ecu software it is stored and will not change until you make the change.
let me know what your looking for and I'll get you a price.
I may still have some of my set up that is not spoken for that I will not be useing with my new motor.
there a few options for injectors. you could use nismo sidefeed injectors desigend fot the sr20det. they make 550's and 770's.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:41 am

Would that be the SHO only available in automatic with the CAM problem causing lawsuits against ford and low resale on the car? Tell your bud to sell it before his engine grenades and get something you can rely on.

The turbo beetle with 180 HP in a 3000 car and a skidpad of .79 ? I doubt the addition of only sway bars increase it by .11! Im fairly sure the stock turbo legacy could keep up in a straight line and beat it on cornering.
Now if your talking about a turbo v6 awd swap beetle then I take it back and would consider that a sleeper. Even so the twin turbo v6 beetles with AWD barely brake into the 12.9x range so? For considerably less money you could have an Impreza running that.

I wouldnt knock Honda/Acuras. You mention handling in your other thread, Ive never seen a SHO or Turbo beetle do well in comparison to any random Honda. The only cars that can regularly beat a honda would be a miata or neon.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:22 am

It would be a 99 SHO with the automatic (recently rebuilt, shift kit and tranny cooler), and the CAM problem that has been welded and taken care of. The engine is perfectly durable (if you question it, ask the few turbo and supercharged Gen3 owners. Putting almost 400 to the ground without any real issues).

The beetle does have a .79, as the Turbo Legacy has a .8 on the skid. Going from no rear bar to a 28mm rear bar, and (I think) a 26mm front bar, I think he'll be doing just fine on the skid pad.

At least well enough that I have reason to be worried in stock form. Hence the good idea of doing suspension first. Which I will be doing. To the tune of STi Spec-C Struts, Pink springs, and I have no idea what bars.

I guess I won't know how I hold up until I get the car, lol. I have a lot of faith in the SHO's handling, not to sure about the beetle though.

At any rate, not trying to start anything. I'm a SHOnut since I started driving (I was going to buy a 95 as my first car, but a Ranger was more appealing due to what i would be doing). I have no doubt that the Subaru COULD outhandle the SHO, but the SHO is no slouch.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:43 am

FWIW (if anyone cares)

A stock Civic Si pulls .81 on the skid. A Miata pulls .87. The SRT-4 pulls a .84. The RSX-S pulls a .81. An M3 pulls .87. A Mini Cooper pulls .79. The Cooper S pulls .87.

Just incase anyone wanted any specifics. The turbo legacy is right on par with most of those (it's .1 below what the G3 SHO pulls, and .1 above what the Turbo Beetle pulls).

But back on topic...

How should I tackle the engine modding? I don't wan't to half-ass it just so I can say I am pushing 15psi. I'd rather run 11 or 12psi efficiently, rather than run 15psi and suffer reliability and performance problems.

kelley · Post by **kelley** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:46 am

600 hp huh. that's pretty good ciper.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:27 am

I dont think Ill actually get 600, I wish

I was just using your numbers in the calculation.
If linear that would be [(400-165) / (15-9)]x(20-9) + 165 = 595.8 crank HP
Im after far less than that. If your numbers are correct then I have overbuilt the engine for the boost I plan to run or I should increase my power goals. Looks like Level 10 will have my tranny sooner than expected!

kelley · Post by **kelley** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:32 am

ciper, you know, so much of it depends upon the ecu calibrations.
that being said, it is never a bad idea to overbuild your motor.
that just means you'll be able to turn the boost up later

(as I have said before) I believe 400 to be a safe estimate of the crank horsepower my ej22t is producing. I have not dyno'd it yet. this is my guess judging by the way it will pull away from my sti and a zo6 corvette.
i've been contemplating buying some nismo 770 injectors and tuneing it to 20 psi and dyno it. yeah i've been wanting to do that that for quite a while.
what are the details of the tranny level 10 is building for you?
level 10 builds some good tranny's.

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