scion discussion

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:01 pm

ciper wrote:THAWA: How would you spend more money on it a few years down the road? It has 0 miles on it, its a toyota and it has a warranty. If any manufacturer rivals subaru for reliability its Toyota. This vehcle would end up being cheaper than a used subaru in the long run, I know because I already calculated it when comparing it to a two door 2.5 liter Impreza.....

You're telling me in a few years you wouldn't have to replace or repair anything? at all? No oil changes, filter changes, or routine warranty maintence? As a point I feel honda's are the most reliable cars, but that's neither here nor there. If I was to fix every single thing that was wrong with my car right now I think I'd get into about $5500-6000 dollar range. Including initial cost and gas up until right now. Last I checked 13k>6k. How long are you judging as a long run? Of course the impreza is going to be more expensive it has a higher initial cost. What does the Xb offer to me that my legacy doesn't? Besides the ugliness factor. I'm not saying my baby is a poon magnet, but come on it's a box on wheels.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:13 pm

Depreciation is another factor which I will suspect will be higher than average for a Toyota as this is designed as a fad vehicle from the outset and will likely suffer long term in change.

Steve

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:18 pm

They don't sell them here yet (they started in Cali only), but I have seen them at the Auto Show. The Xa looks like the Echo and I don't see the point, and the Xb I already commented on. I'm only 5'11" I don't need much head room. New car smell makes me ill and I hate electronic driving aids (with the exception of lights). It's also a spirtual matter for me to own old cars, but I'm sure no one wants to hear about my beliefs so, unlike conservatives, I'll keep them to myself.

Steve

scottzg · Post by **scottzg** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:38 pm

Toyota has made a very wierd vehicle. From a sensible standpoint, it makes perfect sense; fantastic features, unparalleled reliability (yes, better than honda and esp. subaru) great mpg, all the things you know you should really be looking for.

Then, they attach a marketing campaign that chases away all the practical, sensible toyota buyers away, without really attracting the impulsive "oooh, i gotta have that" crowd. It looks like a box, neither ugly nor attractive, but their hideous ad campaign makes it ugly.

I think the people they are trying to sell to want bona-fide power and a little roughness, reliability be damned, you sacrifice your time for image.

eastbaysubaru · Post by **eastbaysubaru** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:59 pm

I haven't really seen many Xa's around, but the Xb is a Great car. There's more legroom in the rear than in my dad's old '00 745iL. Seriously. I made him sit in it at the SF auto show and even he was amazed considering how small it is on the outside. The styling is a love hate thing, you either love it or hate it. I love it. I'm not sure what draws me to it, but I like it. It's functional, cheap, and roomy. Granted, I haven't driven one yet but it seems like a great car.

-Brian

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:04 pm

As someone who works at a Toyota dealer which has about 6 or 7 Scions sitting out front right now as I speak, I have some valuable input.

They are the biggest rip-off in the U.S. auto market today. The very first one we got in stock was an xB auto outfitted with 17" Enkei wheels, nasty OBX Altezza taillights, garbage factory stereo, etc. etc. The final tally was approaching $19,000!!!

Keep in mind this thing is nothing but an ECHO underneath!!!

For $19,000, I could get a Matrix XRS 6-speed with:
1) a Corolla (read: better) platform
2) more room, more style, more versatility
3) 72 more horsepower!!!

I was looking at a xA 5-spd that we have in, with none of the ricy parts, just stock, sitting there at $13,500. Again, an Echo on which it's based can be had for $10,000!!

For $11,000, I could get a Corolla 5-spd with:
1) a Corolla (read: better) platform

2) just as much room, still looks better
3) 22 more horsepower!

I honestly think the Scion brand is doomed. Yes, Toyotas are reliable cars (except for the 3.0 V6's

), and I expect Scions to be no less reliable. But I hope the kids that they're marketed for aren't stupid enough to realize what a waste of money they are!!!

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:09 pm

Thawa: Do you realize what you are saying? Any vehicle will need standard maintanance. A new vehicle will require less repairs than an older vehicle, no way around it. You have to purchase gas either way, and since the average MPG for a subaru ends up near 25 where this ends up near 30 you spend less. I dont know where your argument is headed because it doesnt make sense.

evolutionmovement: You need to do more research on how cheap cars depreciate. Even some of the crappy cheap cars keep more of the value percentage wise compared to a more expensive car. Even with 30k and 2 years old the scion should still be worth 8k.

scottzg: Who cares what marketing they decide to use. I dont purchase a vehicle based on the marketing. If I did Id NEVER own a subaru......

subyluvr2212: They are a rip off when you purchase all the extra bullshit. Why do you need the extras? The Matrix doesnt have as much usable room. The only spot I see the Matrix being better in terms of room is the front. How does it have more versatility? Neither are meant for off road, and the XB has better storage so?
You try to justify "waste of money" because loosers adding options. I could just as easily end up with a 24k matrix using your reasoning.

For 19k Id rather jump to an SRT-4, significantly faster than any corrola. Who cares about the extra HP, the point is for a COMMUTER car that can be depended on with a low initial investment.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:22 pm

All I'm saying is my money is better spent on my car than on any type of scion.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:40 pm

Am I the only one really enjoying this?

If storage was what a sole concern I could get an old 4-cyl Chrysler minivan for a few hundred dollars and replace them every few years. They got mid to high twenties for mileage and certainly more space. PLus I could move concrete in the thing and not feel bad about making a mess of it.

Yes, more expensive cars depreciate faster, especially non sports cars (what's a better way to throw away money than buying a 7-series BMW or Rolls-Royce?), but that's not my main argument, only another cost to factor in. A better buy would then be a two-year-old Scion as the major depreciation would be done with. And unless you want it to depreciate faster, I'd suggest caring for a new car instead of neglecting it, so there's auto care products which all add up. Up here a car needs a wash at least once a week, too (over $300 self-wash/yr), but with an old car you can neglect and forget with little effect on value.

I've spent much less on my old Subaru and have had better reliability than a lot of people I know with new or less than four year old cars (although admittedly not Toyotas). And I more obviously enjoy the time spent with my car than they do (they're always complaining abbout their cars. I almost never do). Any money I spend is by choice (no forced payments every month). I've still spent less than the price of a new Scion over more than five years of ownership. I doubt the Scion would be comfortable enough to drive Detroit to Laramie in 19 hrs. straight only stopping for dry eyes or LA to Beverly in 49.5 including a few hours sleeping in the back. As much as I loved my old light-weight GLs, 10 hrs of driving was the limit of hell. Then there's foul weather driveability, braking, and handling to consider. Plus the fun-to-drive factor, without which I don't care if the car was free - I still wouldn't want it. I've never driven a Supra, but almost all the other Toyotas I found to be excedingly boring. The two exceptions were an old rear-drive '70's Corolla and a the 2nd generation MR-2, although that was more a product of engineering than personality and I prefer personality.

Steve

91White-T · Post by **91White-T** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:42 pm

One word: FUGLY

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:01 am

evolutionmovement: "If storage was what a sole concern I could get an old 4-cyl Chrysler minivan for a few hundred dollars and replace them every few years."

Then you would have to spend time finding one to buy every few years and worrying about its reliability during the time you owned it. Plus the MPG is far lower.

I agree that a used Scion would probably be the better idea, since the first person already took the major hit. After that the value probably levels out and only decreases with mileage.

Id be willing to bet the Scion could be driven for 70k miles before any repairs are needed (except possibly brakes). Your car is at best equal if not needing more. Even though its not the same vehicle Ive had plenty experience with the different models of tercel to know you can abuse them for quite a while before they start to complain.

THAWA: How is that? You continue to drive your car during those times you aren't able to enjoy it, slowly using it up. Id rather have a dedicated beater and only drive the other car when I can fully enjoy it.

It would be like this, why would you buy an STI and drive it in rush hour traffic? Wouldnt you rather save it?

91White-T: You think its ugly, many people over the world dont. Forget the looks and focus on its application, as a commuter. Tell me the other vehicles you would consider for the same price (considering msrp under 14k).

eastbaysubaru · Post by **eastbaysubaru** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:34 am

The benefit of buying an Xb over an Echo is the size. There's sooo much room and it's much more functional in an Xb. Fugly's a subjective term

-Brian

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:45 am

ciper wrote:THAWA: How is that? You continue to drive your car during those times you aren't able to enjoy it, slowly using it up. Id rather have a dedicated beater and only drive the other car when I can fully enjoy it.

It would be like this, why would you buy an STI and drive it in rush hour traffic? Wouldnt you rather save it?

If I had the choice of having two cars and could afford it then yes i'd save the STi assuming the other car wasn't my baby or a 2.5 GT. The reason my car will still be cheaper in 2-3-5-10 years, is the inital cost. I saved $11k dollars compared to you. Even If I had to buy a brand new block and tranny it'd still be cheaper than the repairs you'd have to make at the appropriate times. I'm fully able to enjoy my car, and if something breaks I'll repair it. I push my baby a lot, and I enjoy doing it. But what I enjoy more is fixing her. So Maybe I push her that hard subconsciously just so I'll have something to do, maybe not. But that's kinda a bird walk. What I really want to know is, what exactly does the scion Xb offer that a BC/BF doesnt?

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:47 am

evolutionmovement wrote:Am I the only one really enjoying this?

no

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:01 am

THAWA: Do you forget who your talking to? I currently own 4 subarus. I have a 91 LSI that I have spent a total of 1450 on including the price of the car and 450$ tires on WRX wheels.

The Scion offers the chance to have a vehicle that I dont need to think about. If the oil/gas/air is full it will run without question. Ill use it for 25k miles and sell it to regain most of the money. In that time I had my other cars to use for what they are good at, going fast, going on long trips or playing in the dirt.
A legacy may be reliable but its not going to last forrever. There are items wearing out on the car that arent easy to replace.
What happens when you are stopped at a stop sign and some dumb ass runs into you? If this was the SCION you already have insurance to pay for damage. I doubt you have full coverage on the legacy and if you do they wouldnt cover more than 1000$ in damages minus your deductable. So you either shell out the money to fix the old car or find another one.

You keep forgetting to calculate what your time is worth. You mention your car and how it can be infinitely repaired. I hate bleeding brakes. Ive dont enough strut replacements that I can complete an entire vehicle in less than an hour. Leaking cam seals are a pain. Do you enjoy replacing tires all the time, or do you run hard costco brand tires which prevent you from enjoying it? Id rather drive something with rock hard tires that dont wear out and put near drag slicks on my fun car than some half assed attempt at making it work in both worlds.

mTk · Post by **mTk** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:24 am

THAWA wrote:
evolutionmovement wrote:Am I the only one really enjoying this?
no

i am

MK

scottzg · Post by **scottzg** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:47 am

surprise! ciper is a SCION sales rep!

seriously though, I got my old legacy with 72k for 1600 dollars. I spent another 600 and about 6 hours of my time doing maintainence. Once i get around to putting in the suspension, it will run/ride/whatever as well as a new car. And guess what?? I've NEVER HAD A SINGLE PROBLEM. (that wasn't my fault) Insurance is cheap. How could i possibly do better?

My car is a commuter car. I have a toy.

Thawa is a terrible debator, but he has a point.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:09 am

ciper, from what you're saying in this thread, you're considering buying a Scion as a daily commuter that's new and reliable. While I'm beginning to think buying a new car is a waste of money all in itself, I understand your reasoning. I would LOVE to drive around a brand-new car that just needs gas and basic maintenance. I just wouldn't love paying for it

However, if you're considering something like this, please allow me to recommend a Corolla to you. After all, it is the best-selling car of all time! Also, a Car and Driver test of 16 cars in the small segment revealed that the Corolla was the fastest in pretty much every last test they put it through.

The Corolla/Matrix and Celica get my vote as the most reliable Toyotas you can get. The trucks are also excellent. Avalons are okay. Camrys and Siennas are absolute garbage.

The Echo, and thusly the Scions, are good too. I'm not taking anything away from their reliability. It's just that the Scions are overpriced to me. Forget the Matrix XRS, I can get a base Matrix stripped for $13,000, same price as a Scion, except bigger engine, just as much room, etc. etc.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:54 am

Problem with the corrola is I wouldnt enjoy it. It feels the same speed of the scion. It doesnt have as much usable interior space and it has the same seating position as my legacy.
I would rather continue running my LSI with a rebuilt engine than a corolla. It doesnt matter if its the best selling car of all time, lots of crappy cars are sold in huge numbers. Ever drive a civic automatic of nearly any year? They are slow and overpriced yet many people buy them as part of standard procedure from what everyone else tells them.

scottzg: Your choice of the legacy as a commuter car should prevent you from doing any upgrades to it. If you plan on changing anything it ends up as another toy. If you dont spend enough money and time its half assed. I want to focus my attention and specialize my vehicles.
1 super fast car that handles well (my wagon with turbo engine swap)
1 kick ass mud car (my XT6 with modded suspension and knobby tires)
1 car for my wife to learn to drive in (the 91 LSI)
and the commuter that I pay no attention to (scion)

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:32 am

scottzg wrote:Thawa is a terrible debator, but he has a point.

I am a master debator

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:38 am

I know you have cheap legacies and have helped a friend have a $500 dollar one or some rediciously low amount. Which is why i thought you'd see my point by now. If my car got to the point where it would be way to much to repair all at one time, from accident, or otherwise I'd have to get a new car. I've calculated my time into each thing, the time I get to spend working on my car is priceless to me. I learn something new everytime I do something and that's what really counts to me. My car was down for 2 weeks a little while ago and it sucked but I now enjoy it even more. As far as the tires they are good year or something, I don't plan on replacing them until I get new wheels. Still I don't see what the scion offers that would be worth the extra amount of money. What is it?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:00 am

Ah, insurance. Mine's much cheaper than the full coverage the bank would make me get. If someone hits me, it'll be their fault and they pay. If not, then screw me for being stupid anyway. If they're uninsured and at fault, that's what the crowbar is for - you wait six months and pay them a visit at night. I can only afford one car - if you're talking a cheap beater to haul crap for my Legacy, Grand National, Lynx XKSS, and Caterham (or Lotus Elise since we're dreaming here) then I'd say a couple year old Scion wouldn't be a bad choice. My argument is having it as an only car. I'd still take an old Cadillac hearse, though, if I'm going to have drum brakes like the Scion in the rear and worry about space. Screw the mileage - this isn't Europe.

Jesus this is a passionate discussion - we're a bunch of geeks!

I leave for a few hours and takes me five minutes to catch up.

Steve

scottzg · Post by **scottzg** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:02 am

ciper wrote:scottzg: Your choice of the legacy as a commuter car should prevent you from doing any upgrades to it.

Who said i was planning on doing massive upgrades to it? If i wanted a massively upgraded legacy, id get another one, they're cheap.

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:18 am

THAWA wrote:
scottzg wrote:Thawa is a terrible debator, but he has a point.
I am a master bator

sorry....had to

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:31 am

I test drove a Scion tC, with the 2.4L 160-hp Camry motor. Granted the one I drove was an auto

but nonetheless, that thing is a dog. I can easily imagine my Legacy keeping up with it.

They already have a turbo kit for it

, so some sick tC's are gonna be out there, but stock it needs help BAD!

At least it looks better than any other Scion

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