Dead sube - help!

[Gus]

My '92 Turbo (165k) is dead and I'm seeking some preliminary direction while it sits in the parking lot at work.

It has been running fine, but a couple weeks ago, when I went to start it, it almost started, liked it fired on a couple cylinders and I let off the key too early and when I went to try again, it wouldn't start. I think this is a common thing so far when sometimes you don't get it the first time, you have to crank it a little longer the second time before it will start. Like the cold start valve flooded it or something. Well this time it refused to start the second time. I would wait a few minutes, try again and sometimes it would fire on a couple cylinders and other times nothing. 15 minutes later it fired right up and hasn't had a problem since. No check engine light, nothing. Then yesterday as I was leaving work, it started right up, I put it into drive and it stalled. It acted the same as before- sometimes it would fire a couple cylinders other times it wouldn't. The battery is new, so I can crank it for a while and still get nothing. I'm thinking again that it's acting like it's flooding. Despite that, I had someone run me to the parts store around the corner to get a new fuel filter since I have been meaning to change that anyway and with the limited tools I had (sube tool kit) I figured that would at least give it some time to rest and hopefully start by the time I got back and replaced the filter. Nope. So I figured after I left it here at work over night, it would start this morning. Nope. Nothing. So that's about all I have to go on and I'm looking for clues before I have to get it towed. I have my Haynes manual and my Sube tool kit. Only clues are that it seems to smell like fuel from the exhaust and it won't start. I don't think I have a good way to test for spark with my limited tools, but that would be an obvious next step. What would fail on the dual coil pack setup to produce this result though??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[vrg3]

You should check the spark plugs... or just replace them anyway since they're like 2 bucks each max.

A simple way to check for spark by pulling an ignition wire off a plug, sticking a spark plug into the end of the wire, and laying the plug on a metal part of the engine. You should see the spark go either across the gap of the plug or from the plug to the metal it's resting on, or both. Test only one at a time, of course.

Have you checked the whole intake to make sure all the hoses are firmly attached?

[Gus]

Yeah, did the plugs last month when I was experiencing a different problem which I think ended up being bad fuel. Still uncertain about that. All the wires, hoses and vacuum lines look ok.

I have been going through my Haynes manual and taking some of the troubleshooting steps and despite the fact that I swear I smell fuel in the exhaust, I had someone turn the ignition off and on a few times while I held my ear to the fuel filler tube and I don't hear the fuel pump. The Haynes manual claims that I should hear it. Should I?

Now I'm looking for the fuel pump fuse...

[vrg3]

You should hear the fuel pump turn on for a few seconds every time you turn the ignition on, yes.

Sometimes the fuel pump wiring goes bad even when the pump is okay. You may want to pull back the carpeting in the trunk, remove the oval access panel on the passenger side with a Phillips-head screwdriver, and examine it.

[magnux]

While you're checking things, just for the hell of it.. check your oil. Make sure there's no coolant in it. If there is, it will look milky.

It doesn't sound like a blown headgasket, however, when I blew the head gasket on my Trans Am, it had a similar problem.

[Gus]

Head gasket - ewww. If that's the case, anyone want a nice Turbo parts car? I'll check, but yeah, I doubt that's the case. Thanks.

Vrg, on a sedan is the fuel pump access panel in the trunk or under the back seat? The Haynes book says back seat, but then again that covers 90-98, so I'll take your word over that book. Damn, I forgot to bring my meter to work today. I could have checked that. But no, I don't hear anything from the filler tube like the book suggests. Inside the car, I hear a couple muted clicks that seem like they're coming from the front when I turn the key. If the pump access panel is in the trunk perhaps I'll listen back there while someone turns the key.

Going to the Sube dealer today to get rotors and pads for my other Sube so I can at least get that back on the road again. Yeah, both my Subes are down. Brand loyalty is slipping fast. I'm thinking I might have a bad FR caliper on that car too since it toasted a brake pad pretty suddenly. Then there's the suspected crank seal leak on that thing. I might be test driving something new at the dealer.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.

[totech]

When I disconnected the temperature sensor in the intake, I got exactly the symptoms you indicate.

Reconnected it works fine - perhaps the sensor is bad?

[Gus]

That's interesting. I'll grab my book and try to figure out where that's at now. I'll check the connection at least. I have noticed that this engine and all the FI connections are filthy, so perhaps there's just a bad connection somewhere. It doesn't seem like it's been that long since I cleaned the motor, but I guess it has.

Thanks

[vrg3]

I'm pretty sure it's under the carpet in the trunk on sedans at least...

The Haynes manual says a lot of things that are either wrong or apply to 2nd-generation cars rather than 1st-gens.

The fuel pump relay is in the front of the car behind the driver side dash, which is probably what you hear clicking.

I believe if you put the car in test mode (connect the green connectors and turn the ignition on) the ECU will start to turn the fuel pump on and off about once a second. That might help you identify whether or not you can hear the pump.

totech - Temperature sensor in the intake? We don't have a temperature sensor in the intake. Do you mean the coolant temperature sensor that's threaded into the water manifold under the intake manifold?

[Gus]

Dude, excellent call! Connecting the ODB wires does make the fuel pump trip out. I remember that. I'll try that. Thanks.

And yeah, this Haynes manual is all over the place with the different generations. And I'm having a hell of a time finding an air intake temp sensor in the book, but I think you may have just explained that one. Heh.

Thanks

[eastbaysubaru]

If a caliper toasted a brake pad quickly, you probably need to lube up the slide pin. I had a front pad and rotor destroyed by a stuck slide pin.

-Brian

[Gus]

I hope that's the case. The caliper doesn't really seem to be sticking. I've replaced two on my turbo and when they stuck, you knew it. If nothing else, by the smoke signals when you stopped. I'll check the pins. Thanks.

Back to the Turbo, I connected the two green plugs (I guess these aren't the OBD plugs, after my little refresher once I took the cover off) and the clicking of the relays started under the dash. I didn't see a fuel pump relay that matched what's in my book, but instead there's two thin rectangular black ones side-by-side on the very top and it felt like the right one was clicking and the left one wasn't. I'm guessing the right one is the cooling fans relay since it seemed to be in sync with the fans that were cycling off and on. I heard nothing from the fuel pump or anything near the rear of the car. I pulled up the rear trunk carpet and found what appears to be the fuel pump cover, so I put my hand on it and didn't feel anything either. I still smell gas in the muffler though. I had a friend verify that to make sure I wasn't imagining it. So that wouldn't really jive with the bad fuel pump theory. I'm lost on this one. It will be nice when I can finally get it in my garage though. Working on it like this (in my office parking lot) sucks.

I just drove the new '05 GT Turbo wagon at lunch. DUDE. I about blew a nut. I'm having the dealer look into finding me a sedan version. Those cars are SO sweet. Pictures don't do them justice at all. Anyone want a '92 turbo sedan??

Thanks

[professor]

I would definitely check the temperature sensor. Your symptoms are exactly what my old Audi would do when the temperature sensor would short out (the bastards put the connector facing up so salt water would fall right in). In that case, the car would start when the sensor was disconnected manually. Basically, the ECU thinks the car is warm when it is actually stone cold, or vice versa. It could be feeding a way-too-rich mixture thus flooding things, and your wait gives some time for some of that gas to drain down or flash off. Usually if it smells flooded, it is flooded. Your plugs are also likely now dirty so clean them before further work.

In the case of the Audi I could drive the car by disconnecting the sensor, taking off for work, and once warmed, jumping out and reconnecting the sensor. Stupid but it got me down the road, at least to the parts dealer. Your problem really doesn't sound like a fuel pump. I like to test fuel pumps by seeing if they pump gas rapidly into a container. They rarely half-fail.

[evolutionmovement]

Sounds completely like the coolant temp sensor. The only time my car ever gave me a little trouble starting (and intermittently at that) was when that failed. Connect the test leads under the dash to check the codes - they don't always actively flash at you I've found so sometimes you have to look for them. If you're getting fuel, getting spark and the car turns over the only issue I can see is clogged injectors or the temp sensor not telling the ecu the right amount of fuel to supply.

Steve

[Gus]

Yeah, I agree with you guys on the temp sensor. I had one go bad on a 914 years ago and it pretty much did the same thing. Now that you guys mention it though, it's refreshing my memory on that and, yeah, seems like the exact same thing that's happening here. Now I just have to find it on this car. I'm starting to remember now that there is a coolant temp sensor somewhere near the intake manifold. I don't think my Haynes manual covers it though. I may need to find what the correct resistance is on it, etc. and/or find out if it would run disconnected. I'll try the OBD check. Strange that it would store codes without triggering the light.

With regards to the Audi temp sensor placement, that sounds like something they would do.

Thanks

[Legacy777]

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... P_2477.JPG

I'd just replace the sensor. It's 20 bucks if you get it from an online subaru dealer www.libertysubaru.com for example. Plus they don't always test as bad, even if they really are.

[Gus]

Hey Josh, I was wondering when you were going to chime in. I figured you were busy working on your Frankenstein project.

So is that on the passenger side? And you're referring to the lower green one, right? For $20, yeah, I should just replace it, especially since I have a friend at the dealership that hooks me up, OTOH, I always try to avoid introducing new potential problems (defective new sensor) to the equation. If I disconnect this or ground it out, will the car at least start enough for me to 1) verify that the sensor is the problem and 2) drive it out of my yard (that's where I had to drop it off the trailer last night).

Thanks

[totech]

totech - Temperature sensor in the intake? We don't have a temperature sensor in the intake. Do you mean the coolant temperature sensor that's threaded into the water manifold under the intake manifold?

That's the one...

[Gus]

Found the coolant temp sensor in the emissions section of my Haynes manual. It appears that it would be the larger, orange sensor in Josh's picture. It seems that the manual is covering the later models, but by looking at the pictures and referencing the part #, I think it's the same. I can pull it and test it with a heated pan of water if necessary. It also states this:

As the sensor temperature DECREASES, the resistance will INCREASE. As the sensor temperature INCREASES, the resistance will DECREASE.

This leads me to believe that if I just unplug it, the car might start if this sensor is the culprit and is causing the engine to flood. OTOH, I would think if it failed, it would be because it was causing the mixture to be too lean to start. I've thought it seemed to be flooding all along. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks

[Gus]

Oh yeah, I also was checking out the OBD part of the book and it did state that the ECM will sometimes store codes without triggering the check engine light. It states that those codes are only accessible in D-Check (dealer check) mode and not in U-Check (user check) mode. The POS book also leaves out the step where you connect the two wires. Glad I've done this before. Heh.

[professor]

If the car won't start and you continue to turn it over, you may end up flooded even if the mixture was too lean, since none of the gas burns off and it just builds up. Yep, unplug it and see what happens. If it starts you should be able to plug it back in at some point, probably when it starts running like crap after warming up a bit.

[Legacy777]

It's the bigger brown sensor that you want to replace. The little one is the temp gauge for the dash. They are independant.

You can test the sensor, however I have heard of people that have tested it and it showed ok, yet it was still bad and when they put in a new one, their problems went away. Which is why I mentioned for $20 and with any higher mileage motor, it's probably best just to replace it.

you could try unplugging it and see if it starts. You may want to check the codes before you do this however.

[Gus]

OK, I came home from work, did the brakes on my wagon, then tried to do what I could, in the rain, with a near dead battery on my turbo in my yard. Obviously, not much. I did try to start it and the it acted like it wanted to start, but the battery was so cashed that it barely turned over, so who knows. I knew that I had to pull the codes before unplugging sensors or removing the battery to charge, so I did that and other than that, all I did was check to ensure that all sensors in question were present and connected, then I pulled the battery to charge it overnight.

The two codes I received were for the knock sensor and cam angle sensor (22 & 13). These were the same codes I pulled from it four years ago when I had to replace the knock sensor, so I'm thinking they're old and not related to the current problem, but they have been stored for four years (and two battery replacements)?? That's kind of hard to believe. In case they are current, I know the knock sensor wouldn't cause these symptoms, but would the cam angle sensor?

I'm probably not going to be able to get parts this week, so before replacing the temp sensor, I'll likely end up unplugging it, testing it, checking the spark plugs, etc. Perhaps I'll dress it up with some potted plants or something for the time being.

And Josh, I don't care what anyone says, the temp gauge on the dash is Fisher Price and on a timer. You could dump all the coolant in the system and that thing would still go half way after five minutes. I've practically done that <g>

Thanks

[evolutionmovement]

I don't know, my gauge seems to respond very well to changes. Check the connections for the cam angle sensor and clear the codes o make sure. If it is a problem, I can sell you one.

Steve

[Gus]

Mine goes a hair below half way after five minutes and doesn't budge, ever. No matter what.

I'll probably take you up the cam angle sensor if it comes down to that.

Thanks