CES Install w/pics

[magicmike]

The unpacking...

I must say that I was very impressed with the amount of bubble wrap they used to package this exhaust. It took me about 45 minutes just to get every last piece out in the open. Upon inspection I found every piece to be in excellent condition. The quality of this system is amazing. The meer fact that this system came from australia without a single dent in the tubing is mind boggling.

Removing the old system...

I started by unbolting the DP from the turbo. Since I just installed the engine about 1000 miles ago the bolts were not too bad. I did not use anti seeze when I installed it the first time but did this time. I unplugged the O2 sensor and unbolted the DP from the tranny mounts. At this time I left it "hooked" on the lower tranny mount. I then proceeded to go down from front to rear slipping the hangers off the rubber supports. I sprayed the rubber with some WD40 to make it easier.

Intalling the new system...

I checked the fit of the dual dump seperator plate and found that it fit pretty well. It did not require any modifying or trimming to fit. it did however have a small gap towards the top but I'm not sure how much of a big deal that is.

I used a high temp O2 sensor safe gasket maker to coat both sides of the plate and stuck it to the turbo.

I installed the O2 sensor in the DP with some antiseeze and tried to fit it up. This is where I encountered my first and only real big problem. The DP would not fit because it was hitting the trans mount. It was not even close guys. I do not attribute this to the CES system but rather to my VF-34 sitting a bit higher on the up-pipe (another story for another post). anyway, I got under the car with my cut-off wheel and notched out the trans support bracket


This gave me enough room to get the dp in. It is still very close to the trans pan but its mounted firmly to the trans bracket so I do not anticipate that it will ever touch. There is about 3 mmm gap there.


Well I then mounted the "test" pipe since I am not running a cat and installed the mid pipe from there. The muffler section went on next. I did not have any problems with anything else. The hangers were in the exact locations. The only thing that I am concerned about is the length of the tip on the back of the muffler. It falls pretty short of the rear bumper. its a good 15 CM from the back of the car. For me its ok, I dont want a big tuna can hanging out the back of my car but I was expecting to be able to at leaste see the exhaust without getting down on one knee.



more and all pics here: http://www.thawa.net/gallery/album22?page=1

My impressions after the install...

Well, its loud as hell. Perhaps if I was younger I would think it was cool but I'm looking at it from a drivability stand point right now. I do not want to attract attention. I took it out last night and it did seem faster to me. I need to drive it more to really see. I did notice that on the highway it does haul ass much better now.

So there you go. If I missed something please let me know.

[BAC5.2]

Mine isn't that loud... It's loud, but not unbearable. I barely hear it with the windows up and the radio on at all.

Hmm...

Watch out for a bumper fire... I was reading "Technobabble" in the latest SCC and Dave Coleman set the bumper of his car on fire because he blew an IC hose off and it shot a 5 foot cone of fire out of his exhaust and caught the bumper on fire.

He installed a kick plate deal on the bumper to prevent this.

My exhaust sits a bit to far back and it hangs funny (not sure why). I'm gonna have my test pipe bent slightly and shortened a bit to correct this.

[vrg3]

Cool pictures. That's interesting that the VF34 sits so differently.

Hmm, so you didn't use a downpipe gasket on either side of the boost enhancement plate? I guess the gasket maker should suffice.

Did CES provide hardware as well? Was it stainless too?

[BAC5.2]

The VF34 doesn't sit higher. He had to mill a spacer for the GT-Spec headers. The uppipe section sat to low.

Hate to hijack, but Vikash, do you have any pics of your bling new downpipe?

[vrg3]

Oh, right, I remember now about the headers.

I don't have pics of my downpipe, but I could take some... it's not much to look at though.

[legacy92ej22t]

Wow, I don't understand why your tailpipe came up so short. Mine's about even with the end of the bumper. That seems strange, I would write Trevor and send him a picture and see what he has to say.

Phil- I think your's hangs funny with the test-pipe because the system's for a WRX. You'll remember that the cat I sold you with the system was bent to fix that. When you were running the cat it hung perfect.

[BAC5.2]

Oh yea, lol. That's right!

Hey Matt, Guess who put 4 cars on Roman's SHO from a 55 to 95 pull?

[legacy92ej22t]

4 cars? Right on! Was he bummed?

Damn, I need to get Subarina back in the mix!

[magicmike]

Cool pictures. That's interesting that the VF34 sits so differently.

Hmm, so you didn't use a downpipe gasket on either side of the boost enhancement plate? I guess the gasket maker should suffice.

Did CES provide hardware as well? Was it stainless too?

no gasket on either side. The gasket material was suggested by Trevor. he did mention using the factory gasket on the back side between the DP and the plate but I thought it would fit better without it. And yes, all the harware was supplied and was stainlell. Very nice package as a whole.

[scottzg]

Sweet, mike!

Hijack, but i dont see making a whole thread dedicated to it. Does anyone know what size nut the exhaust brackets attach to? specifically the one thats around where the shift lever is?

[BAC5.2]

Matt - No, he was stoked. We knew I would win. Never knew just how badly. It was a SPRINT away, not just a walk. It lasted no more than 8 to 10 seconds. It was insane. He said it sounded like a Jet. WRRRRRRRRRRR..VRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM..PSSSHHT

It was awesome. SO cool. 3rd gear is a bad motherfucker. I used to think 2nd was my favorite gear, but up top, holy shit. 3rd is unstopable.

[georryan]

Wow mike! Looks Great. You guys all seem to have nice tips on your mufflers. I don't have that at all. It almost looks like I need to add a top over the pipe. If you click the link from my sig you might find a picture that shows you what I mean.

I can't believe yours sits so high. that's insane.

I actually put my gasket back on. The guys from MSR talked to Trevor and said it was sappose to be on there, but if he told you otherwise you should be fine. I didn't notice any difference when I added it. I put it between the plate and the turbo. That's where MSR told me to put it.

I know you think it is loud, cause I sure did right after I changed it, but you'll get used to it quick. It isn't as loud as you think, just heck of a lot louder than stock. Crusing on the freeway it isn't bad at all. Just perfect. Plus you can find certain sweet spots were its quiet enough to forget that it is even a non stock exaust.

If you didn't have the resonator or just a straight pipe, this thing would be a LOT louder.

-Ryan

Oh Scott, I think that bolt is a 12 mm. (if your talking about the one that connects the dp to the tranny)

[magicmike]

Well after driving the car more I still think its loud but I do not think its as loud as I thought it was at first. Whew, dos that makes sense? Well anyway I have a very strange condtion now with the free flowing exhaust that I never had before. It relates to the turbo but I thought I'd post it here as I think the two are connected. Well, after putting on the exhaust I noticed that my MBC was working like shit. I had to turn it way back down and eventually took it out because I would have spikes of over 15 lbs on occasion. Well I connected the turbo back the way I originally had it (compressor nipple directly to wastegate). Now, the wastegate on a vf34 is set to open at 8 psi, so I am wondering why now under hard accel I am showing 12-13 psi. How is this possible? My thoughts were that the wastegate was getting cought on something but there is no interferance with the seperator plate in the DP. also if I am under hard accel and then let off the gas at once I get a huge spike close to 15lbs. Do you think my factory blow off valve thingy is not working right? Or is this normal for an auto? I have no clue. I still havent ordered my avcr but I probably will tomorrow. Let me know your thoughts...

Thanks,

[vrg3]

Hmm.

Perhaps you're seeing some boost creep.

From what Jeff (of MSR) told me, it's no accident that the stock downpipe flange is designed the way it is. Subaru's engineers intended it to cause lots of turbulent flow when the wastegate is opened. This allows the wastegate to slow down the turbine more effectively. Basically, instead of flowing enough gas to completely bypass the turbine, it flows less gas but uses it to disrupt the flow through the turbine.

Now, the stock STi downpipe flange is different from the WRX's (and ours). If you look closely at the flange, there's actually a little dimple in it. This dimple actually is shaped to deflect wastegate gases directly back into the turbine! From a turbulence point of view this is horrendous, but it does allow the wastegate to be more effective.

Many, many STi owners on NASIOC who have upgraded their exhausts have found they started to experience boost creep.

So apparently that extra turbulence was a necessary part of the boost control system, due to the large amount of airflow and the relatively small size of the wastegate.

Your CES downpipe is pretty much the polar opposite of the STi downpipe in terms of turbulence. It flows extremely well and causes very little backpressure.

So... yeah. Boost creep.

What are your options? One is to increase exhaust restriction some. Get a much quieter muffler maybe. I dunno.

Deadbolt does offer their "Black Hole" wastegate upgrade for turbos like the VF34. They enlarge the wastegate and install a larger flapper to properly match up. This helps reduce (or maybe eliminate?) boost creep problems with these turbos. It seems relatively cheap; $69.99 plus shipping:

http://www.deadboltspeed.com/wastegate.htm

Based on the pictures it looks like the opening is close to twice the size when compared to stock.

I don't know if that'll fit right with the BEP though.

Where are you measuring boost pressure?

[magicmike]

How the hell is this possible. I get what I believe to be the best damn DP I can buy and it is the cause of this weird stuff? I am not taking out my turbo and sending it to get ground up. But thank you very much for the suggestion. Its weird because even with the raised boost it feels just as slow as it was with the 8 lbs. I dont know, this car is starting to piss me off. Oh, I have the boost gauge t'd off on the tube going from the compressor to the waste gate.

[azn2nr]

hmm my turbo doesnt have a dimple in it. its a vf39 off an sti.

[vrg3]

Mike - It is the best downpipe you can buy. I'd place the blame for the boost creep problem on the turbo design. The idea of using such a small wastegate with such a big compressor is questionable at best.

But once you put a good electronic boost controller on, the boost creep might not be a problem (unless of course you desire to run less than 12-13 psi at the compressor outlet). I would expect that a well-designed EBC would have some intelligence in it that can deal with setups that are subject to creep.

If measuring boost at the compressor outlet, as you are, you do expect to see a small spike in boost as the throttle is shut, since the blowoff valve doesn't immediately dump all the air.

Have you hooked up my scan tool yet? You need to know what your ECU is seeing. If you're right at that magic airflow level where you're pushing the MAF sensor's limits, you can expect a dip in performance since you'll be running pig rich.

Jason - The dimple is on the downpipe, not on the turbo. Gas comes out the wastegate, bounces off the dimple, and goes back up into the turbine.

[magicmike]

hum...can I run the scantool off my p4 laptop running windows 2000 from work?

[vrg3]

If the laptop can boot off a CD and has a printer port, it should work fine.

Dude, with such a modified car, in my opinion you can't afford not to have the scan tool running. Buy a $50 laptop if you have to.

[magicmike]

I'm waiting for you to make the scan tool work with my sony vaio palm pilot lol get off of here and go make it work

[vrg3]

Hehehe...

You didn't bother waiting for that before modifying the engine, though, did you?

[magicmike]

I couldn't wait until hell froze over now could I?

[vrg3]

[legacy92ej22t]

It is possible to get slight boost creep with the CES DP but I never got more then .5- 1 psi of creep and that was only under severe load like going uphill in 5th. I don't believe that Phil or Ryan have bad creep issues either. None of us are running the same turbo as you but I suspect there may be some other problem.

I think it's a better idea to T off the pressure sensor line for the boost gauge. That way you have a better idea of what the ECU is seeing and what boost levels the engine is actually getting.

[georryan]

I get slight creep every once in a while. I really think it is more due to my boost control solenoid, though. I noticed that initially after putting on the dp I would get a .5 to 1 psi greater boost, but once in a while it will go up to 10 or 11. The other day in 4th and accelerating it was going up to like 13 and I backed off real quick. After that the ecu compensated and I couldn't get over 6. I'm curious to see what will happen when I get a MBC. Generally speaking, though, my boost is consistently slightly above stock.

-Ryan