Timing Belt loose. (Old:Possible ignition module problem)

[Stas]

Hello,

I have a 1990 Legacy L Auto AWD. I did search here with no luck. The problem is that the car wouldn't start. It cranks but doesn't fire. I tried a new coil pack, still the same thing. Tried swapping the ignitor - still the same problem. Now the mechanic is suggesting that it could be the ignition module. Can somebody tell me where it is located and if I have the right name for it. Is it also called EGI module?

EDIT: On another note, since I am not too familiar with these cars, can somebody tell me where the main car computer located.

Did anyone else experience something like this? Thanks a lot in advance. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[professor]

the car doesn't have an ignition module

the ECU controls the signal for firing the igniter. the ECU takes in signals from the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft position sensors to time the signal (modified by the input from other sensors)

make sure the camshafts are rotating (timing belt not broken), then check the input to the ECU from the cam and crank sensors, then check output to the igniter from the ECU

one of these things will likely be wrong

read this

http://www.ravensblade-impreza.com/tech ... nition.pdf

[Stas]

Thanks a lot for getting back to me about this.

Since I am new to Subaru, could you point out to me where the ECU is. I don't want to dig into unnecessary places. From the picture in the link that you posted, it looks like it's on the passenger side. Am I right? Also, would all these parts be interchangeable between 1990-94 Legacies, N/A models (ignitor, coil pack, ecu, crank and cam sensors)?

Is there a page in the manual that takes you step-by-step process how to check the signal? I am not too good with it myself, and maybe I'll be able to give some input to the guys working on it, since they are ready to open up the wiring and trace the wires.

Is it common for the ECU to go on these cars, or the sensors? On my mazda the ecu broke, and I wasn't able to start the car at all, no cranking, nothing. Thanks again. The article was very informative.

[professor]

you need to look at the factory service manual for the pin inputs to the ECU. Then check there for the correct incoming signals from the sensors, and the correct outgoing signal to the igniter

look in the Library section of this site for the pinout diagram

it would be nice to have a known, good ECU to swap in

the timing belt is whole, right ?

[Stas]

I'll check the signals, or have the mechanic do it if I can't.

The timing belt is intact as far as I know, I will double check however.

In regards to the ECU - it can only be from an auto, correct? The same year, or can it go up to 92 or so? There are a few Legacies in the pull-it yourself yard that I go to, I will have to make a trip and try to get the ECUs and the sensors just in case.

Thanks again.

[professor]

you might have better luck from people on this site, yards won't let you pull the sensors if the motor is good

it is the same ECU for all the years and models 90-94, just make sure its non-turbo

[Stas]

This yard is alright from what I know. I just have to find the sensors, since I don't know the car too well. Mazda is my daily driver and the one that I work on the most. I took off 4 ignitors earlier in the week, just to be sure I have a working one.

ECU wise - it wouldn't matter if it's from a manual car? Also the location is under the dash, right?

BTW, where is the library section - I can't seem to find it for the life of me.

[rallysam]

ECU is behind the dash, on the drivers side, directly behind the word "tray" (in the vicinity of the driver's left knee).

You don't have to remove the whole dash, just unscrew the one peice of plastic under the steering wheel. Then, if you put your head near the pedals and look up and to the left, you'll see the silver ECU box. It has a row of 4 yellow connectors plugged into it.

It is attached by two 10mm nuts which are pretty easily accessible on the front face of the silver box (you'll see).

After taking off those two nuts, the ECU was easy to remove for most people, but I had a little more trouble. Here's my thread about it:
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=22582

[Stas]

The new ECU didn't help. So we doublechecked the timing belt, since I went off off my brother's words that it was ok. I took the covers on the sides off and it's loose. I could actually pull it back and forth. I didn't take the piece in the middle off yet. Could it be a bad tensioner or just a ripped belt? So all this time it was the problem. I feel a little stupid for thinking that it was something else before making sure it's not the timing belt. Now I have to wait until Monday to start working on the car. The mechanic let me take it apart for him to save a few bucks, and then he'll put it on. I hope it fires up on the first try.

Am I correct in my understanding that the 1990 Legacy engine is non-interference?

Also what else besides the new timing belt and water pump, should be checked or replaced?

[professor]

check the front seals for oil seepage, and change the tensioner, even if it seems good. the loose belt probably resulted from a worn tensioner

and be sure to properly torque down the crank pulley bolt

[Stas]

I took everything apart. Got the new timing belt on, just to see if it would even start. Nothing. There was spark if I remember correctly. My mechanic checked compression for me - it was 90 on all cylinders. There was nothing he could do he said. Does this mean that the engine is done? What options would you folks recommend? I don't have that much to spend to get the car back on the road, probably a grand or less.

[skid542]

First recommendation, don't give up .

You've gotten a lot of the 'common' problems checked it sounds. If you have spark, the next thing to do is check for fuel. With the spark plugs out, crank the engine over a little, do you smell gas? Can you hear injectors clicking?

[Stas]

Thanks, skid542. The fuel is alright. When we pulled the spark plugs out they were drenched in gasoline.

My mechanic said that probably some valves are bent. So it's either an expensive rebuild or just getting a used engine and dropping it in. I will look more at it tomorrow, maybe check which valves are bad.

[professor]

bent valves, how? the timing belt problem won't do that

compression 90 ? is that psi? equal is good but 90 is way low, it should be 150-210 with no more than 10-15 psi variation between any two

are you sure you are timed correctly ? being off and opening the valve too early would give even but low compression as well as no start

[Stas]

Is this an interference engine or not? I don't think that I mentioned that it was actually ripped. I thought that since it ripped it messed up the valves. Am I wrong in thinking that way?

The timing should be correct, my mechanic helped me put the belt on. We followed all the diagrams and I would hope he did it right, since he has 15 or so years of experience. Is there a way to check if the valves are ok without taking the engine apart?

[skid542]

It is a non-interference engine. A ripped or even completely broken belt won't do a single thing to your valves, it's one of the nice things about our engines . I would double check my timing too, just to be sure that it didn't slip a tooth (easy to do when putting it on).

As far as checking the valves, don't really know about that one.

[Stas]

Thanks again, skid542.

We counted the teeth between the marks on the belt. The manual said, if I remember correctly, that it was 44 teeth between cam sprocket and crank marks on the left side, and 40.5 on the right side. Is there another way to do that. It was on TDC, the mark on the crank aligning with number zero on the plastic cover.

[skid542]

Yeah that sounds right. When you had your crank sitting at TDC, I'm pressuming you had your marks on the cams lining up with the cover as well? Some guys don't count the teeth and just make sure the cams and crank are aligned and then it's a matter of making sure the lines on the timing belt fall in the right place, aka on the marks for the cams and crank. If your timing is right and you have spark and fuel I'm not sure what else to tell you other than make sure a rat hasn't built it's nest in your intake somehow .

[Stas]

Gentlemen, I have some excellent news for you tonight.

After hearing your reassurance that it's non-interference engine, I came back to the car today with a clear mind and decided to redo the timing on the belt and realign it. We moved it over 3-4 teeth, still nothing. However, the compression tested excellent this time between 220-230 on all cylinders. Then we thought that maybe we turned the crank an extra time, so we checked that, still didn't fire. Then towards the end of the night my mechanic realized that we've been following the wrong alignment marks on the crankshaft. We aligned the cams correctly, but we've been using the arrow on the front of the crankshaft sprocket as a guide, instead of a little dot on the back tooth of the sprocket. So we aligned it with the dot and it fired right up. That's awesome because now the car can be driven tomorrow after putting it back together.

My last question about this topic - is there some kind of a rubber gasket that goes between the center timing belt cover piece and the block? Because when I took it off and put it back on now there was nothing and there is just a little bit of play in it when it's tightened all the way. And are there any gaskets on the outer pieces?

Lee and Professor, thank you very much for your support and knowledge. I'll frequent the forums more often now that I got such a warm welcome.

[Legacy777]

Yes, there should be a gasket between the cover and the belt.

I've got a scan that shows all the gaskets, however I'm in Greenville, SC tonight. I should be back tomorrow evening.....if I don't post something, pm me to remind me.

[skid542]

Glad to hear that you got it running and it was only a timing issue.

Yeah the BBS is a great place to hang out, good cars and good company.

[Stas]

Thanks again guys.

Is it one big gasket then? or three separate pieces for each piece of the plastic cover? Also would it be dealer only item? Did you have luck finding it at Autozones and such?

How crucial are these gaskets also? Can I drive without them for some time?

[Legacy777]

There are two gaskets for the center piece, one at the top, one at the bottom. There are not gaskets that go between the two plastic pieces on the side cam covers. There are gasket pieces that go between the back cam cover and the engine though.

I'd venture to say it's a dealer only item.

All they do is keep dirt and grime out. Only issue I can see is reducing the life of the timing belt, but I don't see that happening if you drove around like that for a few days.

[Stas]

Thanks for getting back to me about the gaskets. I could only find it at the dealer. It was 40 dollars for the ones for the front center cover only, top and bottom. The car is excellent now though.