Bye bye ABS

[gt2.5turbo]

Okay im almost set to start my 5spd swap into my wagon the only thing that i have some questions on is how to get rid of abs...

1) Has anyone actually removed the entire unit?
2) cant i just get non ABS lines from a legacy and replumb it?
3) is replumbing going to be a PITA with the engine still in the car?
4) anything that i should know eletrical wise associated with
getting rid of ABS?

[Manarius]

I'd suggest you leave ABS in there, it's a very useful feature. Besides, it's wired right to the ECU...and the ECU will cry if you don't have ABS hooked to it...

(I mean the crying thing figuritively of course)

[rallysam]

FYI - If you just want to disable it you can pull a fuse. But obviously if your goal is to lose weight that doesn't help ya

[BAC5.2]

Manarius - How is ABS a very useful feature? It actually lengthens stopping distances in the snow, the time when most people have the least knowledge of how to drive properly.

I haven't been running ABS since the shootout, the fuse just sits in my ashtray, and I haven't had any problems at all.

[Manarius]

I lock up on dry pavement on occasion; I'd feel a lot better if I had ABS working for me. They don't make it standard on most cars these days unless it's worth something.

[BAC5.2]

Well, it's good you find comfort in it, I suppose.

I prefer to prevent lockup using my foot and not rely on a computer to judge my driving.

I remember at the Shootout, Vikash and I were having ABS engage on dry pavement when we weren't even really that close to locking up.

I only like ABS because it lowers your insurance rate.

[professor]

I have no doubt that ABS on my BMW has saved me from two accidents.

In one case I was changing the radio station and looked up to see a stopped car in front of me. I slammed on the brakes and stopped maybe 6 inches short of the car. With 55 series ZR gumball rubber a BMW can stop with incredible force, I seriously doubt I would have been able to moduluate that stop as well without the ABS. In a similar stop in my Miata I ripped the rubber right off the RF tire, leaving tears and a huge flat spot (no ABS)

in snow I agree, deep snow only, on ice or packed the ABS works better than you do

[rallysam]

Manarius - How is ABS a very useful feature? It actually lengthens stopping distances in the snow, the time when most people have the least knowledge of how to drive properly.

I haven't been running ABS since the shootout, the fuse just sits in my ashtray, and I haven't had any problems at all.

Well... I'm not going to completely disagree with you, but I'd guess that it helps a little bit on dry pavement. And not just stopping distance, but also braking stability. Not a lot... but a little bit.

But you're definitely right about snow. I ALWAYS pull that fuse before rallycrossing. I've heard confirmation from design engineers that ABS hurts braking distance on loose surfaces. But, even if it hurts braking distance, it's still supposed to help stability.

[NuwanD]

you can replace all but 2 of the lines, the only 2 that are an issue are the ones that run inside the car and to the rear wheels... you can only do these if you have the entire interior inc. dash dissassembled

the others can be removed and replaced with the engine still in the car... you may have to remove items here and there to make some working room

I replaced all my lines and did a different setup than stock... write-up is located at www.spda-online.ca, somewhere in the competition tech forum

hope that helps

[gt2.5turbo]

sweet ya cause i would like to gain the space in the engine bay maybe for my new coolent tank or an ic sprayer tank if all else fails ill pull the fuse for now. i have always driven a car without abs and have had so close calls but i believe im good enough driver that braking distance isnt an issue

[Legacy777]

I know ABS would've saved me from the one accident I had. You can modulate when expecting, but it becomes a lot more difficult in a panic situation.

[93forestpearl]

I concur. When I hit that deer last year doing about 100, it got pretty squirrely coming down from that speed in a hurry. Not being able to see because of the blown radiator and trying to counter-steer with an airbag hanging out of the steering wheel didn't help either.

But anyways, ABS would defiantely have helped keep the car inline. I came to a stop at about 30 degrees to the right. VERY freaky.

[Richard]

I'm sure having your abs disabled would be a very bad thing if you were ever in an acident. Imagine some drunk bum stumbled in front of your car. You hit him, he dies. Now the insurance co. and police go over your car with a fine tooth comb because there was a fatality. Someone sees the fuse is pulled from the abs slot. Questions come up.

Even if it is clearly the other person's fault, tampering with a safety feature such as brakes can land you in the hot seat big time. Negligent homicide anyone? Going through hell to get insurance after your carrier drops you? Wrongful death lawsuit? Not my idea of fun.

Is the extra weight savings worth it? Remember - shit can happen anytime, anyplace.

[gt2.5turbo]

thats one of the reasons why i want to put in non-abs front lines and get rid of the unit, then it will appear as if it never had abs, ever. The fuse idea was just another solution till i got it figured out. I personally dont like the idea of a computer deciding how i stop i would rather be in full control of my car; i know that abs is a proven system but at the same time i just like being in control.. and the case stated above seems to be a little extreme but i can see how that could be a possible senario. However im not too worried about it and i think that it will be worth it, once again its just a personal preference. i was just wondering if anyone else has done this or if i would be one of the first on the board to fully remove it

[Kelly]

I seem to remember someone on here doing it. Ive thought of doing it as well, but Im just never gonna get around to it. I pulled the fuse after the first time it went off. It just plain freaks me out when it comes on.

When Im at the wreckers, Im always tempted to pull all the brake lines out of a non ABS car to do the swap. I imagine you need the bias controller as well. It looks like everything connects in all the same places.

[BAC5.2]

I'm sure having your abs disabled would be a very bad thing if you were ever in an acident. Imagine some drunk bum stumbled in front of your car. You hit him, he dies. Now the insurance co. and police go over your car with a fine tooth comb because there was a fatality. Someone sees the fuse is pulled from the abs slot. Questions come up.

Even if it is clearly the other person's fault, tampering with a safety feature such as brakes can land you in the hot seat big time. Negligent homicide anyone? Going through hell to get insurance after your carrier drops you? Wrongful death lawsuit? Not my idea of fun.

Is the extra weight savings worth it? Remember - shit can happen anytime, anyplace.

If a drunk stumbles in front of your car, and you don't have time to react and stop yourself in time, you likely would have hit him anyways ABS or not. Cars came without ABS for YEARS, and it's STILL optional on cars today. Everyone who hits a drunk, but doesn't have ABS isn't sued by the victim's family for not opting for the ABS package. Not to mention that cars are mechanical. Things stop working. If ABS stops working, through some other flaw (like the fuse blows, for example) and you kill the guy, who's fault is it then? What if you hit him, and kill him with ABS activated?

ABS ISN'T required by law. You can't be sued for not having it. Technically, you can't be charged with manslaughter either, since you had no intent to harm anyone and had the drunk been doing legal acts, you wouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Public drunkeness is illegal too. So is Jaywalking. At best, vehicular manslaughter, but even then it'd be difficult to prove. Espically if you were in control of the vehicle and the defense is good at math and can prove that the way the car is configured it will stop faster than the OEM supplied braking distances... and even while stock, you can usually out-brake the OEM spec (brake pad compounds and tire compounds have come a LONG way in 11 years).

It could be drawn out for a LONG time and cost everyone a lot of money, and you would likely be offered a plea bargain for something like a driver improvement class and an ERO for ABS.


Maybe it's stock brakes vs. modded brakes, or tires, or something, but it takes EFFORT for me to lock the brakes. Literally, I must force myself to push hard enough to lock the brakes. And in inclimate weather, it's still difficult to do. Even in emergency situations, I haven't had any problems.

[rallysam]

Eh. I disagree with you. You make a very rational argument.... but what's that worth to a jury? Not much.

There is nothing rational about a jury. I talked to a lawyer once who said that 90% of car-pedestrian accidents are the pedestrian's fault because they were doing something illegal. But you know what? They can still take the driver to the cleaners because of the victim sympathy card.

I know that rationally speaking, disabling ABS is equivalent to something legal and normal - buying a car without ABS. I also know that studies show that ABS hardly prevents any accidents. But you know what? If the lawyer for a person who's life has been ruined stands up in front of a jury, points the finger at you, and says that you "disabled safety features"... it ain't gonna be pretty. You can make your very reasonable argument until the cows come home, but every reasonable word out of your mouth will just make that jury hate ya more for being an uncaring bastard!

Cynical, but true

[professor]

claiming the car model was available without ABS will be a useless argument.

the build sheet can be pulled from the VIN number, showing that the car had ABS originally

it may be unlikely but if the car apears modified in other ways, a lawyer may go for the gusto

I agree with rallysam, I wouldn't want to face that one in court

[Manarius]

If a drunk stumbles in front of your car, and you don't have time to react and stop yourself in time, you likely would have hit him anyways ABS or not. Cars came without ABS for YEARS, and it's STILL optional on cars today. Everyone who hits a drunk, but doesn't have ABS isn't sued by the victim's family for not opting for the ABS package. Not to mention that cars are mechanical. Things stop working. If ABS stops working, through some other flaw (like the fuse blows, for example) and you kill the guy, who's fault is it then? What if you hit him, and kill him with ABS activated?

It still is optional, but you'd be hard pressed to find a brand new car on the lot without it. It's proven that it's a good feature in cars..I miss it in my own car.

ABS ISN'T required by law. You can't be sued for not having it. Technically, you can't be charged with manslaughter either, since you had no intent to harm anyone and had the drunk been doing legal acts, you wouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Public drunkeness is illegal too.

No you wouldn't, you'd be charged with homicide by vehicle. A lesser charge, but still a felony and guaranteeing of jail time.

It could be drawn out for a LONG time and cost everyone a lot of money, and you would likely be offered a plea bargain for something like a driver improvement class and an ERO for ABS.

I doubt it, plea bargains aren't often used in cases in which a death happens, at least not in the conviction part, it's most used in the sentencing part.

Maybe it's stock brakes vs. modded brakes, or tires, or something, but it takes EFFORT for me to lock the brakes. Literally, I must force myself to push hard enough to lock the brakes. And in inclimate weather, it's still difficult to do. Even in emergency situations, I haven't had any problems.

You have big brakes and big wheels, that's why you don't lock up. Hell, you probably even have unidirectional tires with a lot of surface area..probably 215's+.

[gt2.5turbo]

look i could care less about wtf happens to some drunk guy who is stupid enough to stumble infront of me because i doubt that that will ever happen. I just wanted some info on getting rid of it. I really cant stop laughing at all this i know that you guys are just bringing it to my attention but i never thought this thread would turn into this lol. Well thanks for all the concern and such and ill let ya know how it goes and maybe ill get a date with the lawyers hot daughter

[BAC5.2]

Even on balding RE92's, I still have trouble locking them up. Not saying I can't, I just can't make myself without a serious effort. I've been surprised, having someone pull out in front of me, and it hasn't been much an issue.

Homicide means you had to have malice and intent to kill. A drunk stumbling off a curb and you running him over doesn't classify as Homicide. It would be impossible to prove that you got in your car that evening to go out and kill a drunk who stumbles into the street.

Involuntary Vehicular Manslaughter would likely be the charge. You had no intent to harm and you had no malice towards the individual, and you did everything in your power to avoid the accident.

The prosecution can claim you willingly disabled a saftey feature, and that lead to the death of someone who was doing more illegal things than you... But that's all subjective. Reguardless if ABS is standard or not on the vehicle, it's not a required saftey feature by law (like air-bags are), and further, ABS isn't technically a saftey feature at all. It's a driving aid, much like traction control, and it's only as good as the programming behind it. Remember, The WRX currently has a voluntary recall on the ABS programming, because it would malfunction and disable the brakes temporarily. The 04 STi had pad-knockback issues that would yield the braking system to be mushy after hard driving and would require several attempts to re-firm the brakes.

In fact, the DOT doesn't technically claim ABS as a full saftey feature. And it warns, "ABS does not guarantee your ability to avoid a crash. Furthermore, you still may lose control . . . when using extreme steering maneuvers." Now, what is the first thing you do if something jumps out in front of you. Say your a total newbie to driving and a person jumps in front of the car. Instinct is to slam the brakes and crank the wheel. Even the DOT admits that this can still have you lose control. I'd call swerving to avoid a pedestrian in a panic situation to be an "extreme steering maneuver". ABS doesn't stop wheels from locking when you are sideways. The DOT goes on to say, "learning to use anti-lock brake systems correctly will provide you with the greatest benefit from the system." That's pretty vauge, since they don't give any specific ways to "learn to use the anti-lock brake systems correctly." There is no DOT approved method of using anti-lock brakes. It's also cool that the DOT never admits that ABS stops you faster than without. They simply say that ABS "allows" (a word that really doesn't mean anything since it's totally subjective in nature) you to "maintain greater steering control" (greater steering control, than what? Than with locked wheels? Than with brakes not applied?) and as the vehicle is "quickly slowed" (quickly relative to what? Relative to not having the brakes applied at all?)

Let's do a quick scenario. Lets say the speed limit is 60mph. The factory rates the car to be able to stop in 180 feet. That is in specific circumstances, and since the actual stopping distance cannot be counted (whether sooner or later than 180 feet, this number must be used). At 60mph, you are traveling at, what, 88 feet per second? So we'll use dirty math for the sake of rounding up, it will take you 2.05 seconds to haul from 60 miles per hour to zero miles per hour. It takes the brain roughly .5 seconds to translate what it sees into motion of a limb. Under stress, that time can be slightly longer, but I'd like to support the prosecution on this one, so I'll stay rounding up.

That means that if something jumps out in front of you 180 feet ahead, you have 2.05 seconds before you will hit him. You hit the brakes .5 seconds after seeing him, and assuming you can perfectly mimic the factory scenario, you will stop just shy of 44 feet after hitting the person.

Roughly, and that doesn't factor real scenarios about the Cf of the tires to the road surface, actual driver reaction times, and the fact that I am lazy and for simplicity sake am working with constants rather than doing the full math.

Much longer distance than 180 feet, and you'd be able to see the person, and have a better chance of dodging them (assuming it's safe to do so). If you hit someone, there's a good chance that avoidance wasn't an option and other factors beyond brakes are a major influence. If you were driving a 2005 Nissan Sentra with the Brembo package and clobbered the guy killing him, what would the prosecution use for their side? You didn't have ABS to "save you" and you can't be penalized for buying a car without ABS, now can you?

All of that said, ABS may be considered a "good feature" but it is NOT officially stated that it is a saftey feature. It's a good idea, but the DOT doesn't even state that the ABS vehicle WILL, without a doubt, stop significantly quicker than the same car without ABS. And any third party witnes that claims ABS DOES provide better stopping distances, can be countered with any number of professionals that don't feel ABS is a saftey feature. Not to mention that situations are changing. I doubt there is a company out there that does drunkard-brake tests, and absolutely no simulation of panic braking will mimic the exact conditions that you were under when you involuntarily clobbered a drunk guy who stumbled off the sidewalk into traffic.

I don't believe it would be as cut-and-dry as some of you think it would be. You may get a small fine or a few nights in jail, but you aren't going to get a life sentance or vehicular homicide charges. Accidents happen. Like I said, at the worst, Involuntary vehicular manslaughter, and I doubt you'd even get that. ESPICALLY if you called the cops immediately after the incident, and were forward with everthing.

[rallysam]

look i could care less about wtf happens to some drunk guy who is stupid enough to stumble infront of me because i doubt that that will ever happen. I just wanted some info on getting rid of it. I really cant stop laughing at all this i know that you guys are just bringing it to my attention but i never thought this thread would turn into this lol. Well thanks for all the concern and such and ill let ya know how it goes and maybe ill get a date with the lawyers hot daughter

That's cool dude. I think we just went off arguing amongst ourselves about whether there was a risk or not... it wasn't supposed to be on topic with your question.

Hell, I wasn't even saying that you shouldn't do it... I was just arguing there was a risk. On weekends, not only do I pull the ABS fuse, but then I go and race my car like a maniac while the ABS is disabled. So knock yourself out!

[Manarius]

In the case of the Sentra, they'd argue driver inattentiveness. However, they'd miserably fail because they could never prove it.

You make a very good claim, Phil. I never thought about bringing my basic physics equations into it. I don't think I can do 60 to 0 in 180 feet. I'd lock up first. Then again, my tires aren't RE92's.

[Richard]

Well, things may not be the same everywhere else in the US, but I live in a state with a very activist court. Here in the People's Republic of Wisconsin, recent rulings have open the door for almost anything to be sued over. Asbestos manufacturers et. al. are being sued even though there's no proof that any specific manufacturer made it. Nut and bolt manufacturers now could be sued et. al. for a failing nut/bolt without any proof whatsoever as to who made it. Throw out the clause "intent do do harm or malice" and anything becomes game. And there is a vast sea of hungry lawyers able and willing to drag ANYTHING into court. Look at the Mc Donalds coffee incident!

Back to the point. Having a car without ABS is perfectly legal to own. Same thing for cars without seat belts. People still drive around old ass Fords, which have niether. Having a car that was made with ABS but the owner modified/hacked out the system could end you up behind the defense table in a court of law. Same with seat belts and tail lights etc.. I used a hypothetical situation to make my point before. Replace "drunk pedestrian" with "student driving a Festiva" or "old man on a scooter" or anything else you can think of. If you hit them with a vehicle with a modified safety control device, you may still be at fault even if the moron "stopped short" or "pulled out in front of you" or whatever. People who were rear-ended were sued because they had smoked tail light covers. Why do you think they bacame illegal? They restrict visibility. All we need is one instance of a modified brake system, top dollar lawyers, and shark-like media coverage and it will become law to have everything down to bleeding lines and changing pads to be done by a certified mechanic to be roadworthy.

I agree totally with Sam and Professor. All you need is a small bit of questionable conduct and a hungry lawyer could use it against you. Whether it's in a civil or criminal court, you could be in a world of agony. I won't tell you not to do it. It's your own ass if anything happens, but it is your call. But I will say if you hit me, I may bring it up in court. It's perfectly legal to bust out the doubt card. But you do own a Legacy, so I might give you some slack. It's all hypothetical. I hope nothing bad happens to anybody here.

[LaureltheQueen]

Many of the legacy's did not have abs though. By removing the abs system and replacing it with a stock non-abs setup, there would be no proof that an system ever existed on the vehicle. We all know that with subaru's shoddy record keeping(688 turbos?), they wouldn't be able to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the car came with abs.