Ethanol retrofit?

[free5ty1e]

I've been wondering what the Flex Fuel vehicles use, and if I could rig up a system that would allow me to add as much ethanol as I want to my tank and still have the car run properly.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

I came across this useful table - I barely eked my way through every Chemistry class I've ever been forced to take, so I'm not totally sure how to interpret all of it, but it looks like a damn good fuel. Higher octane and WAY lower freezing point than gasoline... and it's got it's own oxygen to add to the air, which looks to me like it might have a nitrous-like effect when seriously cooled. Just talking out of my ass, of course, as I tend to do. Someone'll correct me, I'm sure. If there were a group of people appropriate to discuss this topic, I'm confident it's you peoples.

Do I just have to find an octane sensor to put inline with the fuel and calculate how much to adjust the injected amount to achieve the proper a/f ratio (which would probably be changing along with the blend of ethanol and gasoline)?

I foresee a future retrofittable kit to convert all gas injection engines to flex-fuel engines. May be big. Subarus'd be the first to get a kit, of course

[Splinter]

any decent fuel management system should be able to compensate for it.


The computer doesnt have to know what type of fuel is in the engine, you just have to tune for it like you would regular gasoline - start rich and tune to ideal.

You'll want to find out what the idea A/F ratio is, and shoot for that.

[IronMonkeyL255]

Wow..... Alot of interesting stuff on there.

Ethanol is just another name for Ethyl Alcohol. If I'm not mistaken, that's the same type that's in booze.

We just got done with a section on organic chemistry in my Chem course, so this is some interesting stuff.

[free5ty1e]

Yeah, I had a feeling it'd just be adjusting to get the a/f ratio right. I suppose with a good system, it'd be self-adjusting with any blend of ethanol & gasoline.

Anyone know what the ideal / stoich a/f mixture would be for pure ethanol?

Also, what's the cetane rating all about? I know I've seen it on diesel fuel markings... why doesn't ethanol have a cetane rating?

[Richard]

Here's something to consider when dealing with ethanol. 99.99 out of 100 times, you'll get worse mileage running ethanol. I live in S/E Wisconsin where there's a mandate for 10% ethanol blended gasoline. Everyone complains about what horrible mileage they get with this corn gas crap. It has also been blamed for a rash of ruined injectors. On top of that, the state Department of Natural Resources released a study that found that pollution actually went up when we switched to the blended fuel due to the fact that we were burning more fuel to go the same distance. All in all, I'd rather not use an inferior fuel if I had a choice, but I don't have a choice seeing it's mandated.

What we all know is that Ethanol is made from corn or other bio materials, right? What you may not know is how much energy is actually wasted in creating it. First, you need to boil the stuff down to get the alcohol out of the biomass. That takes considerable amounts of energy. Usually a huge natural gas or propane burner does this (we're talking multi-million BTU's here). Second, electric pumps are needed to transfer the stuff to holding tanks. Okay fine, big deal. Third - and you'll love this - it's loaded onto tanker ships, or most commonly, semi tankers and shipped to different parts of the country because Ethanol can't be run through the underground pipes that normally transfer gasoline. Why do you ask? Because Ethanol, as all alcohols, absorbs water. When gasoline is transfered via underground pipes, it picks up a little water from condensation and stuff. It can be easily seperated once it's arrived at the fuel depots. Ethanol, if mixed with a small amount of water, becomes useless. A tainted batch has to be shitcanned. Ethanol has to be meticuously transported so that no water is absorbed because once it's in there, there's no real way to get it out. So, in other words, it's an expensive pain in the ass to transport.

As far as I know, no car on the road today can burn pure ethanol. The stuff just won't burn. A local news station got ahold of pure ethanol, poured it in a bucket, and proceeded to toss lit matches into it without it igniting. They also took two buckets, one with a gallon of gasoline and one with a gallon of Ethanol, and left them in a garage overnight uncovered. The gasoline evaporated slightly, the ethanol was damn near gone, and the metal bucket looked slightly discolored because ethanol is slightly corrosive. The best you can get is E-85, but only certain vehicles made to use it can burn it safely. Flex fuel vehicles are made to burn anything from 100% gasoline down to an 85% Ethanol mixture. Mileage does suffer when running E-85, but salesmen are sorta reluctant to come right out and say it. The only break you get is the stuff is a little cheaper at the pump if you can find one that sells E-85. But with the price of ethanol being currently higher than that of gasoline due to a shortage, one can only guess how much longer it will stay cheaper.

Bottom line - if your car wasn't made to use ethanol, it probably won't like it. None of my cars have. The Subaru Legacy wasn't designed to run on anything but premium gasoline. When I go upstate to visit family, I DO notice a difference in mileage/performance with the non-blended fuel they sell up there. AND ITS CHEAPER!!! As far as I'm concerned, a fuel that gets you less mileage, pollutes more, costs more, and has the potential to ruin your fuel system is a non-option. But, if you want to give the impression that you're helping the environment, buy a Prius and run it on blended fuel. Nevermind the hazard of disposing the batteries. Or the cost. It will nonetheless make you look and feel good about "saving the planet".

The views and opinions expressed in this god-forsaken editorial are not necessarily that of this forum or its' moderators.

PS - I've been following this Ethanol thing for many years now and I am also in the trucking/tanker business. I actually know a thing or two about the stuff. I may not be 100% accurate, but I'm damn close.

[Bheinen74]

ethanol is crap, it ruins injectors. This comes from my dad, a mechanic for 41 years at the same GM dealer. out of the past 10 years, they have seen around 200 or so cars with fuel injector problems. When there are others out there running the exact same car, and no problems, the dealer started asking the people with injector problems one question. "
Do you use gas with ethanol blend?" the answers is, the ones who had problems with injectors did use ethanol gas.
The dealer asked those who were not having fuel injector problems same question, and those with no problems do not use ethanol blend.
100% of the problems with injectors used ethanol gas. Those with zero problems, not. When you have 400 cars on the road of the same type, model, miles, and 200 use ethanol gas and have a problem, and 200 who dont use ethanol have no problem
sure, the blended gas is cheaper, to buy. but fuel injectors are really pricey. word.......and eveything richard said above is true too.
It needs to be said that Ethanol is produced from Corn. It takes gas/diesel for the tractors to go into the field to plow the ground. It takes gas to drive the tractor that pulls that planter. It takes gas to spray for weeds. It takes gas to harvest the corn. Then it gets transported off to the corn refineries in semi tractor trailers. I live in theeeeeeee CORN state, and it is mandated to sell ethanol at every station. We ahve had ethanol here in Iowa for over 15 years. IT IS VERY BAD NEWS, to older cars like our subies.

Ethanol is not a real solution, even though the government joined the ethanol band wagon. The solution, it to mandate new cars have scricter fuel eficiency requirements, that increase every year. We need to lower the speed limits on the interstate highways back down to 55. We are in a war time, right. Well, in WWII, at a time of war, the government inacted a speed limit reduction. they also rationed gas. .

[Richard]

I'd be ok with the stuff if I had a CHOICE whether or not to use it. I would GLADLY pay up to $0.50 more a gallon for non-blended gas any day. The human body was made to run off food, not cow turds. My Subaru is the same way. Damn government creating three problems to give the impression that they can fix one problem. Legislators have to get their votes, so damn the real world consequences of their mandates when they can get re-elected by giving handouts and corporate welfare to powerful constituents and farming communities. Ever notice how the candidates who want to shake up excess and waste in huge government organizations like education and transportation have all the unions working against them and rarely get elected? Damn the real world consequences, all they care about are themselves. It's too bad everyone else is held hostage and have to suffer for it.

[sammydafish]

There's a lot different things about ethanol that needs to be understood before you can pass judgment on it as a fuel. It is a viable alternative energy source and does produce less pollution than gasoline but there are other aspects that need to be taken into consideration. The most prevalent concern from a face value point of view is that ethanol contains less energy then gasoline. Due to this fact, on an engine mechanically designed to run gasoline you'll take approximately a 30% hit in fuel economy. Despite this you'll still create less tail pipe emissions even though you're using more fuel to go the same distance. This would be when running E85 or an 85% ethyl alcohol mix. Note that I said on an engine mechanically designed to run on gasoline. Ethanol is a fuel of a higher octane rating than gasoline and an engine designed to run on gasoline will not take advantage of that feature. The higher the compression of an internal combustion engine the more efficient it burns (hence the high efficiency of Diesel engines). An engine specifically designed to run on E85 can match or exceed the fuel economy of a pure gasoline engine when properly designed to do so. Take a look at some cars designed for sale in a place like Argentina where the only gasoline you can buy is E85 made from sugar cane. They took the falling prices of their once largest commodity export, sugar and turned it into a replacement for the rising price of their largest commodity import, oil. It took the country a few years to work out the issues with the fuel (corrosion and it’s tendency to absorb water being the hardest to overcome), but with some ingenuity they have drastically decreased both the cost of energy and greenhouse emissions. Cars sold there are specifically designed to run on ethanol and take advantage of the fuel to produce good fuel economy. In the US, many manufactures are offering Flex-fuel cars that are designed to run on both E85 and regular gasoline. These cars are on the way to a good ethanol car though do not take full advantage of the fuel in order to retain backwards compatibility with gasoline.


Another advantage to ethanol is that it can be made from pretty much anything with a high cellulous content. This means that almost any plant based biomass waste can be turned into ethanol. It does not need to be corn. Mid-west politicians push corn because it supports the overabundant commodity in their states and huge government energy subsidies can be paid to corn growers that would have otherwise suffered from a poor market. That’s the politics side of it, but the reality side of it is that anything starchy or sugary can be made into alcohol. The husks of the corn, old stale cakes and pies, anything you trim off a vegetable before you cook it, basically anything you throw in a compost pile could power your car instead.

The biggest issue with ethanol is that the political motives behind it are not driven by environmental concerns but rather economic ones. This has lead to a poor public relations campaign on what ethanol really is, how it can be used and where it would be advantageous. It’s lead to the lack of a good infrastructure to support the fuel in a way that would take advantage of all the avenues that exist for gathering raw materials and distilling a useable product. Ethanol is a viable alternative. We simply need to look at it in a different manner. It’s not a direct replacement for gasoline, but it is a good alternative that can use most of the gasoline infrastructure.

[sammydafish]

As far as I know, no car on the road today can burn pure ethanol. The stuff just won't burn. A local news station got ahold of pure ethanol, poured it in a bucket, and proceeded to toss lit matches into it without it igniting.

Ethanol burns under compression, just like oil. It has a higher flash point than gasoline and gasoline is only mildly more unstable. Throw a cigarette into a bucket of gasoline, it won't ignite. You can toss a match right into 110 octane race gas and it won't light since the higher octane raises the flash point. Hold that match over the ethanol and it will burn (ever light a shot of liquor?). It will burn a nice blue flame too instead of the yellow/orange that gasoline would burn, a testament to how much cleaner it is. If those reporters knew what the hell they were doing then they would have reported that too, of course I've sure they didn't get a fuel chemist to give a point of view or explain what it is that they were doing. The result is that you and most other people who watched the report believed they were reporting on something that was like news when all they were really doing was making a big deal out of things that don't actually matter in any way shape or form and since the American public is so damn gullible, the American media gets away with it time and time again.

[evolutionmovement]

Speed limits won't change a thing. People drive what they're comfortable with. Speed limits were 75 before the '70's and during wwII most cars were solid axle leaf sprung affairs with marginal brakes. Employing ox-cart technology to something heavier and ten times faster than it's original application does not make for reassurance at speed.

Sure I get 29 mpg in my Mazda doing 75-80, but I get 26 doing 100 and accelerating hard all the time. I work 12 hour days not including sometimes a total of 4 hrs commuting and the few mpg means nothing to me getting home quicker. There's also the fact where driving even 10 above the limit is too slow to keep me alert (and I'm sure I'm not the only one). Maybe they should make cars less comfortable at speed and that would bring speeds down. My old GLs at 75 kept me alert.

[BAC5.2]

Ethanol is a bad idea.

Back in the 90's, Ford's Flex Fuel vehicles got worse mileage on blend than on gas, and on gas, they got worse mileage than their gas-only brothers.

Yes, the government subsidises farmers to grow far more crop than necessary, but to create the ethanol from organic matter, you need MASSIVE stills that smell awful and explode without much warning. Tell the American public that! "Yes, we are going to put a still in your back yard. Think of it as a gigantic ticking time bomb, that smells. Oh, but you'll be able to get worse gas mileage and spend more money on the fuel it produces."

Does Ethanol burn cleaner? Yep. Sure does. I've had enough moonshine to know what it'll do.

The benefit to ethanol is that we can actually GROW energy. But at what cost? Farmland will be overabused (as tends to happen when people go all-in on new technology). In order to make vehicles capable of handling the "new" fuel, they will require larger fuel injectors (like the old Fords did, and for the record there were no massive fuel system errors in the FFV trucks of the past decade). In order to prevent detonation, timing will have to be retarded like woah, or more fuel injected. Since rich is safer than guessing at timing retard, OE manufacturers will opt for a rich mix. At this point, fat injectors are squirting more ethanol/fuel, than regular injectors would squirt just fuel. The power output would be about the same (the richness of the mixture will counteract the more combustable nature of ethanol), and you'd get worse gas mileage. To top it off, the production of gasoline is just another level of the crude oil production line, actually producing ethanol would be a brand new, custom venture requiring R&D, land, and actual buildings be manufactured. The Federal Government would foot the bill and bump the "yellow" fuel prices to recoup some of the costs.

Switching to ethanol would be a capital losing venture for the FEDGOV, and you know who would be paying for it. If it doesn't come in the form of $6 a gallon at the pump, it'd come in the form of crazy transportation taxes. Oh, and don't expect a tax break on buying Yellow cars like there is on a Hybrid. While Hybrids actually use less fuel, Yellow cars actually use MORE.

Ethanol does provide an opportunity to reduce emissions significantly.

In my personal opinion? I'd like to see a Turbo Diesel Hybrid. 100mpg, and less emissions per mile than anything short of a full electric.

Imagine a Greasel-hybrid? Free fuel and 100mpg, very low emissions, and it smells like french fries. That's a way to take advantage of the fast-food-crazed general American population.

[free5ty1e]

Thanks guys, that was a very informative string of posts. I didn't realize how much would have to change for a reliable ethanol retrofit, and was also wondering about the fuel values - which were not on that table. Oh well.

The fast-food grease engine would certainly exploit one of America's most abundant quasinatural resources.

[555BCTurbo]

Biodiesel is the future for sure...

Some of your facts involving the farming aspects aren't necessarily true, especially because the grade of corn used in ethanol production is just feedcorn, which can be cycled through the same field year after year, so the net yield impact on the soil isn't really an issue. As far as the renewable fuel sources, mustard and soy are the best for biodiesel and straight vege oil diesels, as they produce the most oil per acre, mustard is also a pretty low impact crop, and doesn't need shit for irrigation.

I am hoping that my boss will start running Biodiesel in our combines and tractors...it would be cool to be able to sustain the farm on what it grows...especially when we spend $30,000 on fuel at a time

(can you tell I am a farm kid lol)

[BAC5.2]

Nick - But ethanol can be produced from any plant matter. So higher yields can be had with healthier crops, right? Brazil uses sugar cane for their ethanol. Since all of the plant can be used in the production of ethanol, it's simply all harvested, and nothing is left to till back into the soil. Puts a little hurtin on the land if you want high-yields.

The problems arise by many factors. One, runoff is horrible. Being a farm-boy you should know a thing or two about that (reguardless of whether your particular farm uses pesticides or not). Phosphate runoff from farmland seriously affects land downstream. Not to mention overall amount of matter required to produce a significant volumes of ethanol.

Bio-diesel though is the wave of the future. My boss is gonna convert his Jetta and Passat, just to see. We may also use waste-oil for heating in the winter.

[555BCTurbo]

I understand that you can use anything for ethanol, but around here, feed corn is the easiest/cheapest crop to do it with...the only shitty part is the irrigation, but that can be dealt with in other ways.

As far as runoff...it's kind of an inevitable part of farming, I don't really see the need for extensive use of non-organic pesticides or herbicides in the growth of non-food grade crops...

It's an interesting topic for sure...

The US needs to get their heads out of their asses and start driving diesels off of SVO based on mustard...that would be the best thing

You don't really "convert" a car to run on Biodiesel, the only thing you have to do if you run B100 is change your rubber lines to silicone as the methylesters tend to break down rubber.

Straight or Waste Veggie Oil requires the washing of the oil and a heated auxiliary tank...but then you can run oil that you get for free.

If anyone wants to read my term paper on Alternative Diesel Fuels lemme know and I will send you a copy via teh Email

[free5ty1e]

Nick, I'd like to take a look at that term paper if you wouldn't mind... I did want to get into biodiesels for generating power on my land off the grid as a backup for the solar and wind. Then my gas generator will be an absolute last resort.

I'll PM you.

[Manarius]

Same debate going on over in the SVX forum...linkage:
http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?p=397779

[BAC5.2]

Nick, I also want a copy. BAC5point2 gmail if you will.

[Richard]

+1 for diesel hybrid proposals

[isotopeman]

Phosphate runoff from farmland seriously affects land downstream.

That statement made my day. We have such a hard time convincing the local farming communities (mostly chicken and cows) that phosphate and nutrient loading is why there are problems with their drinking water even in a place with so much available.

It's not just those of us with Subarus who are dealing with this. Even if new cars are available that are designed to burn this or that fuel (or not burn it), there are countless cars on the road that will still need to be used. 100% of the people who depend on their car can't afford to buy a new car because the technology changes. If someone found a cost-effective way to convert, or even rebuild a typical engine to keep it current, they'd be set.

I may be criticized for saying this on a board of car enthusiasts, but if we can't practically convert our cars on the limited current technology, why don't we just look at reducing our need to drive so much?

[93forestpearl]

When using biodiesel, IIRC, don't you still need to start on dinodiesel? My friend's uncle is running it in his Superduty, and yeah, it smells like french fries. I remember him talking about how the oil needs to be processed in some fashion to get the animal fats out of it.




It would be sweet to build a motor that took advantage of E85. How about a 9.5:1 high boost turbo motor? muhuhuahahaha

[206er]

algea based biodiesel is a prett promising new technology too, and can be grown FROM ag runoff helping to clean it in the process.
I too wrote a paper on alternative diesel sources, this stuff is super interesting to me.

another reason ethanol is bad as a fuel is that current production methods are inefficient given the amount of energy it contains. so net energy being used on production would be negative. at least corn based ethanol. the ethical issues of using a food crop for fuel are moot IMHO given the way our agriculture industry is set up.

biodiesel on the other hand, especially algeal biodiesel, is efficient by something like 3:1 as far as energy input to grow it.
it was actually discovered when some scientists were trying to find a way to clean up the salton sea with algea. basically these algeas are one of the most oil rich life forms, 50% or something, and practically grow themselves in WASTEWATER. how's that for efficiency. use the sun and waste to make energy.

basically, waste vegetable oil is broken down into glycerin and methyl esters, both of which are very useful. methyl esters is biodiesel. glycerin has countless uses.
you can start up a car on biodiesel just fine, it is better for that than regular diesel in many respects ie lubricity, sulfur content, etc. and typical diesel cold weather additives work great on biodiesel too.
running straight WVO is possible, but you cannot start up with it as its too viscous for the fuel system, you need to get it heated up a little.
Rudolf diesel actually designed the diesel engine to run on peanut oil, and then petrodiesel was discovered a few years after his death and his design was bastardizied for petrodiesel use.
isnt methanol what the alky dragsters run? its lower energy but has some super high octane so they can run 17:1 or a 12/71.

[Subtle]

Let's keep it simple--- It takes more energy to create a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of ethanol contains.

Given what it does to fuel lines etc. it is totally impractical, which makes it irresistable to the liberal-left.

It is best to be calm and wait till this wave of political anxiety is over before making serious decisions to alter the course of history.

For balance, it's appropriate to keep in mind that with high performance engines, gasoline exists to turn complicated hydrocarbons into wonderful noise and speed.

[free5ty1e]

I don't commute to work every day, my driving needs are very minimal now that I live in Elko. I fill up my tank probably every other week at the most. I am interested in alternative fuels not because I want to buy a new car, or because I want to prompt others to buy a new car... but because I want to work out retrofits for the millions of existing gasoline engines out there.

I might point out that I am very liberal in my political views, but now that I've been partially educated about ethanol and it's drawbacks, I no longer think it is a practical idea. It is being pushed entirely too hard with all these commercials and such, which is the only reason I wanted to look into it as an alternative fuel for retrofits.

Quite obviously, diesel engines have many retrofittable alternative fuel solutions, and I'd love to experiment with some of those. But I'm still mainly interested to find a reasonable alternative fuel for gasoline engines.

What do you guys think about the gassification of coal? Let's keep the discussion going.

[206er]

I like LPG for an altenative fuel, especially in a performance application.
super clean burn, 105-110 octane, most propane mixers are designed to handle boost and are super easy to tune. its energy density is not that of gasoline but the very high octane negates that when you build a motor specifically for LPG, IE 12:1 or lots of boost.