200whp from a N/A?

[Murphy]

this is a hypothetical question

just wondering how much money would be involved in squeezing 190-200whp (streetable) from a 90' EJ22 and what would need to be done. ive thought of a few things but dont know what all of them exactly cost and dont know what sorta gains to expect from them:
-port and polished heads (no idea how much $$$)
-Delta cams (i think they are around $160 but not sure)
-Borla headers ($362)
-cat back or complete catless (in the area of $3-500 i would geuss)
-new injectors and fuel pump ($$ ??)
-intake ($15-$150 depending on if i can make it from scrap or not)
-new engine management (from what i hear its a hole lotta $$$)

im geussing that it makes around 120whp at this time, so would all that stuff be over kill? not even close yet? or in the ballpark?

[Splinter]

Stock its not gonna get anywhere near 120whp

I dynod at 125whp on the 4EAT with a turbo running 10lbs boost

[Murphy]

realy? i thought it would be ten or so hp under what it is at the crank (supposedly 137)

so would it be more like 100whp? or less?
is it because of the 4EAT?

btw for the question just asume its a 5MT

[Splinter]

Well, a conservative estimate based on my mods vs stock HP rating would have placed me at 180hp at the crank.

The dyno I put it on also has a correction factor of about 15% I believe, so thatd put me closer to 105-110 hp at the wheels.

The gives about a 40% drivetrain loss through the 4EAT. I dont know what it is for the 5MT, maybe around 25%... but thats a total guess.

AWD eats a bit of power.

[Brat4by4]

You'd be very fortunate to get 100 hp / liter. That's with a lot of engine work and a massive amount of custom engine management tuning.

So you'd be fortunate to get 220 hp at the crank with engine only.

[rallysam]

It'd probably be cheaper to do an engine swap and tranny swap, and that ain't cheap either.

[Matt Monson]

What sort of dyno numbers one sees will be greatly impacted by the dyno used. I will make the example of the Ej25 since that's the engine I have the most dyno experience with and most people around here don't ever dyno the NA Ej22's.

On our local Dyno Dynamics dyno, a stock 2.5RS puts down 95-100whp. This is for a car rated at 165 chp from the factory. On a Mustang dyno, for comparison, the same cars puts down 120-125whp. So, you can see that there are huge variances in the numbers.

For further reference, my 2.5RS puts down 150whp on the Dyno Dynamics we have here in town. This is on a car with all the best bolt ons, as well as cams and pretty serious headwork. My block is stock and my redline is stock. Based on how you calculate it, my car is making somewhere between 225-240chp. On a Mustang dyno, I would probably be around 175whp, but haven't had my car on one in about 2 years.

So, if we use 220chp as the goal on an Ej22E, what follows is what I would consider the minimum needed:

Built bottom end with extensive machine work like kife edged and balanced crank, forged 12:1 or higher pistons, Pauter rods, etc. etc. Expect this to run in the neighborhood of $3000 or so to do it properly. I would also consider punching it 1mm overbore and bumping the displacement a bit.

Then the heads will need to be done. Realistically, to get them to flow as much as you will need, I think they will need more than just your standard port and poilish and valve job. What you will need to do it go to larger valves, in a lighter form with light springs and retainers, as well as the most agressive cam you can get from Delta Cams. Expect all of this to run your $2500-3000.

And then you get to the sticky part of this formula. The rockers and HLA's on the Ej22E heads just won't handle revving past 7200rpm or so. And for this build, you are going to be looking for an 8000+ rpm redline. So, what do you do about the HLA's?

And I don't have a good answer on that. It's conceivable that you could come up with some sort of solid lifter replacement for the HLA's, but I have never seen anything like that offered anywhere. If this problem can't be solved, I don't think getting this engine much above 210-215 HP will be very feasible.

I do have other suggestions that could be used, but it gets into changing the heads out for some EJ25 or Ej20 heads, and then it wouldn't be a true Ej22E build anymore. But if you express an interest in that approach, I will post back with more thoughts...

[Murphy]

well i was thinking about the 25 heads, but wasnt sure if that was only good for the EJ22T, i dont know much about how to get and what is a good compression for N/A motor.
Since EJ25 heads seem to be an option, are the DOHC a choice are would that require the EJ25 ECU in order to work right?

i had no idea it would take so much to get that out of this motor, maybe i should say at the crank, because it sounds like 200whp is an unrealistic goal for any budget

[bmxpunk]

Going with your N/A build, go with equal length headers not Borla. Borla have a cool sound, but not anywhere near the gains of say the cobbs. My friends and I are in the middle of a ej22 N/A build with a 90 legacy that is consisting of a cobb header, delta cams, catless exhaust, some porting, lightweight pulleys and flywheel. He is pretty much hoping just to kill the little honda kids around here with b16's etc.

Ask matt about the 22e with 2.5 eads and boost. If i remember correctly that combp puts you at a boost friendly 8.5:1 compression with a similar bottom end to the 22t (barring different pistons) that would be a cool way to go.

Or you could swap in an ej 25 for a cool N/A build that would be neat in that old car. not nearly as powerful as a turbo car but what are your goals?

[sammydafish]

I can pretty much garentee that you'll never get even close with EJ22 heads. minimun you'll need EJ25 heads and intake, ported and pollished. You'll have to build it to rev just so you have the engine speed to make the number like Matt was saying. Compression will need to go up and go up a lot. Also, since the only replacement for displacement is boost, puntching it out a bit on an NA is worth every bit. A really good intake manifold design won't hurt either and might be required on only 2.2 litres. Like others have said. to break the 200whp number, on a manual you'll need somwhere in the 240-250 chp range. That's over the 1hp/liter number and is only attainable in the most refined engines. Even engines that do make the number tend to be very top ended as they need the engine speed to make the number. Think Integra Type R, S2000, M3 for some of the best factory cars that have done it. without a strong engineering and R/D team, you'll be hard pressed to match the refinement of those engines even mildly.


I say go for gold, but don't be dissapointed if you don't get there.

[Matt Monson]

Here's one potential manifold solution...

[BAC5.2]

That shit is gangster.

Converting HLA to Solid lifter has been done, at least in the EJ22T heads. A built set of EJ22T heads flowed more on the bench than EJ205 heads, by a significant margin. One of the mods was converting HLA to solid lifters. Its a shame I don't know more about this setup, but it wasn't done at our shop.

[bmxpunk]

when i was going to keep my 22t heads i was trying to figure out something for a solid lifter. am I way off thinking that something like a nut could be welded in the spot where the Hla's are housed, the top part of the rocker arm drilled out then you could just add a screw and a nut to back up against the rocker arm to keep everything tight?

[sammydafish]

to convert to solid lifters, just get the rockers/lifter assembly off a 96+ EJ22, they are solid.

[bmxpunk]

to convert to solid lifters, just get the rockers/lifter assembly off a 96+ EJ22, they are solid.

really? same mounting pattern? i ve never really been in the 96+ 2.2's just he older ones

[skid542]

I pulled the valve cover off my 96' the other day and the rocker assembly definately doesn't look the same. The arms also aren't in the same positions and have different lobes I think, so I don't know if you could swap the assembly over even if the mounting pattern is the same.

But this is just speculation from what I could visually see.

[sammydafish]

I've never done teh swap, but IIRC they look the same. I have a late 95 engine here I'll pull apart soon and see what rockers it has. It's dual port exhaust though, so I assume it's the same as the 89-94 engines.

[skid542]

If it's dual port then I'd yeah assume you're correct and they'll be the same as 89-94.

Mine is single port though .

[sammydafish]

yeah, I know the single ports are solid... I just don't have one here to tear appart and check compatability. Anyone else have both heads?

[bmxpunk]

THe early 2.2 heads are completely different from the later models. there is no way they are interchangable

[Yukonart]

H6

[Murphy]

mmmm... H6 sounds very good, if only if actualy had the cash for any of this, H6 is about $1700-$3000, but it shouldnt be to much harder than a EJ to install, ive heard it just bolts up to the same place as the EJ and can bolt to the 5MT that came with the EJs. the only problem is room for the power steering pump but i could figure it out, i dont have ABS so thats not a problem

its much bigger but it fits with less than half and inch on each side and very close to the fans but it works, clearance from the firewall is the same as the EJs

anyone wanna make a $3000 donation to me???

[evolutionmovement]

Wiring. Don't forget wiring.

[Murphy]

would it be any harder than swaping an EJ? i mean you do all the same stuff i geuss, it takes all the wiring like fuse box and ECU and the whole harness

is it realy as difficult as people talk it up to be? or is it just time consuming and a little hard on the old thinker

[evolutionmovement]

I personally would like to know if it would fit in place of an EA81. That's a much simpler car, too so would make the whole thing less confusing and easier to sort. Maybe. Of course, I'd just go stand alone anyway to deal with the twin turbos I'd add to the welded-door and caged '84 wagon. Why wagon? So I could incorporate the smaller engine in back to run the under chassis extraction fan.