IAT and the Next Level G-Box

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:46 am

Hey Guys,

I just bought a NL (Next Level) module off of ebay. It isn't one of those resistor scams that you see there all the time, but I honestly don't know much about this unit. The sight that the company has recently come online to is http://www.angelfire.com/pa5/nextlevel/

Does anyone know anything about this chip or have any thoughts?

Secondly it requires that I splice into the wires going to my IAT (Intake Air Temperature sensor). Which is fine and all but I can't find one on my 91 legacy sport sedan. From reading an article on Cobb's sight, it sounds like my modle didn't have one or it was all part of the MAF. The only subarus that had an IAT were the ones that used the MAP setup. Do any of you know if my car has an IAT?? And if so were is it? If it is part of the MAF, Which wires are they? haha, I know that is a lot of questions, I hope someone out there will know how to answer them

Thanks guys
-Ryan George

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:00 am

I would personally recommend against these things.

I've used something similar to this on the knock sensor, and results were not desirable.

You can get a chip, and hook it up......that would be the better way to go.

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:06 am

do they sell chips for my car? I've heard that they don't. I had figured I'd try it and if it had some bad results I'd just take the little mod off, but we'll see. Thanks for the advice, I do appreciate it.

-Ryan

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:32 am

I agree with legacy777. From what I can tell that "box" you have purchased is just anothe resistor scam repackaged.

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:57 pm

Well the two chips that are out there are ProECM or Torque 2 chip.

I'm currently running the Torque 2 chip, you can get it from http://www.iwtu.net Al is on this list too.

You can get a ProECM here http://www.imprezars.com/product2.htm#proecmpowerchip

Both chips should work with the turbo, but wouldn't hurt to double check.

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:36 am

hmm, I looked at it and it doesn't appear that they work for the turbo. The one you run might, it didn't say spacifically.

Anyway, there is actually more information on the chip thing I bought on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 1868595323

I guess I could always try and hook up the deal and if it doesn't work just take it off. I wouldnt be too surprised if it was a scam, but I have a small reserve to think it may have some validity because I've been talking to the seller on AOL messenger and after reading his description of the product on ebay it sounded like he'd done his homework. Although I guess all scams sound like they've done their homework, right?

I'm still curious though if a 91 turbo has an IAT sensor? It sounds like only the second generation legacy has them from all my research. Does anyone know anything about that?

-Ryan

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:28 pm

I still wouldn't recommend the thingy.....what's goin to happen is the ECU is going to be getting readings from temp sensor, saying engine is cold, it's goin to dump more fuel.....but other sensors are goin to be sayin engine is warm......you could have issues.....

You need to contact the vendors about the chips......they probably just don't have all the cars listed on the site.......in general....how the chip hooks up and such....they should work on any subie.......should is key word.

Well whatever you decide to do....keep us posted.

Oh....and I think you're right....the early gen leacies do not have an intake air temp sensor.

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:35 pm

You realize Josh that if the early gen legacy's don't have an Intake temp sensor then I don't even have an option to try this little thingy.

<shrug>

-Ryan

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:58 pm

Are install instructions on the site?

I did not see them. If not....email them to me....I'd like to take a look.

I don't believe you hook it up to the intake air temp sensor....but the coolant temp sensor......unless I am wrong.......

lemme take a look at what info you have as far as install goes and we'll try and get it figured out.

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:55 am

Here are the sights you can go to for install help. They sent some in the mail also, but ths is the online extra help.

www.angelfire.com/pa5/nextlevel/help.html

and

www.angelfire.com/pa5/nextlevel -- temp homesight.

Thanks for your interest Josh.

-Ryan George

Post by **Legacy777** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:28 pm

well.....looking at the first site and what they are hooking too.....the older legacies have nothing like that.

It's possible that the IAT sensor only started being on engines when OBD2 was introduced in 1995.

Sorry Ryan

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:24 am

Hey no problem at all. I'm not worried about it. After I read about the difference between the MAP and the MAF setup I realized that my car probably didn't have an IAT sensor.

Thanks for checking it out though.

-Ryan

mile hi · Post by **mile hi** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 2:11 am

The Torque Chip will work with a turbo. I saw that thing on E-bay and I really doubt that it will do much for any engine. Perhaps someone should tip off E-bay about the scam.
AL(CO)

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 12:12 am

Well guys, here's my update to the G-Box situation. I emailed the guy and talked to him and he's going to send me a refund. He appologized that he didn't know that the older subaru's didn't have an IAT sensor and is frustrated cause now he has to update his ebay bids. Well I dunno if it is a scam or not, but he's been nice about it and is refunding me the money for the part.

-Ryan

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:57 am

Ryan,
I bought the same chip(Next Level G-box) off Ebay and I'm having the same trouble finding the IAT sensor. I've done extensive research on the circuit diagrams for the first gen Legacy's and I'm still having trouble. If you notice when you pull the boot off the MAF sensor(the IAT is integrated w/ the MAF) you'll see 5 wires. 1 blue, 1 black, 1 blue/black, 1 red, 1 white...from talking with diff people the best guess is the red and white wires. However, I'm still stuck because I don't want to risk random wire severing. So in conclusion I cant help either and I joined this BBS to ask the same question and this is the best I know. One day I'll figure it out and let you know. I did only pay $24 for it so I figured its worth a shot.

~Ross

'93 NA Legacy (dont underestimate NA's)

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:03 pm

There is no IAT sensor for the MAF based cars.

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:26 pm

What about reprogramed ECU's? I'm thinking about a Liberty RS ECU, the mapping for IC and more boost would be a big help. With the IC it's going to get more timing advance. I have not really looked at it, it might take some different wires but the sensors "should" be the same. Does any one have the pinouts for both? I don't think the .2 liter would make much difference, maybe run a few more psi fuel pressure but it should be able to adapt. The injectors are another question but I could swap them also if need be. I'm only going over this because when I get my IC the timing is still going to be retarded too much. And I know there is a lot of power in running the most timing you can.

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:46 pm

Hmmm... well the first guy I talked to at COBB tuning was under the impression that there was an IAT in MAF Legacy's. On the other hand, I just called again and the guy I talked to didn't even know at all.

So I guess I stand corrected...

mile hi · Post by **mile hi** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:41 am

Don't hook it to the red and white wires! you could very possibly damage an expensive MAF sensor. The red wire is power and the white is signal black and black/ blue are grounds of two different types and the blue is a ID wire. There is a internal intake air temp sensor but it is used in trying to determine the density of the air and it's signal is combined with the MAF output voltage. I work with these things almost everyday and I manufacture the TorqueChip.
AL(CO)
al@iwtu.net

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:31 am

So would you say that there is no way to actually tap into the IAT sensor wires?
Thanks for teaching me a litte more about the system.

mile hi · Post by **mile hi** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:00 pm

There is no way that I am aware of. The MAF on the turbo Legacy is a sealed unit. I did take one apart that was defective on a long shot that it might be repairable and after removing the top found that it is built using surface mount technology that is buried in a silicon like substance. Also I think that any small temperature sensor voltage change may do something rather radical to the air fuel mixture as this is not a linear voltage change with temperature.The same is true of atempting to "adjust" the water temp to make the engine run rich, this usually also retards timing and nothing is really gained in most cases except a high HC reading. In other words I think most of these gadgets are a borderline scam and there is no "free lunch" at least I haven't found any in the last 13 years.

AL(CO)
al@iwtu.net

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:11 am

I have to agree with mile hi, scam or close to it. Why don't people just get a lower temp T-stat and an adjustable FPR ?

Post by **Legacy777** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:20 am

-K- wrote:I have to agree with mile hi, scam or close to it. Why don't people just get a lower temp T-stat and an adjustable FPR ?

Don't do that either.......if you've ever replaced the t-stat with one that is not OEM......you'll know what I'm talking about.......They cause issues......the aftermarket ones are not as deep, do not offer the same resistance to temp change as the OEM one....the OEM one opens more. Just trust me.....you'll have problems.....plus I don't really see how getting a colder t-stat would do anything. All that would do is lower the temp in which it opens.....which means your engine would not warm up as quickly.......

I started typing something out about FPR's.....I'm going to start a new thread.....I think it's something that should receive attention.

-K- · Post by **-K-** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:24 am

They get less emissions out of a hot engine. You can get more power out of a colder engine. Turbos like cooler engines.

mile hi · Post by **mile hi** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:04 pm

I will agree with Josh, using anything other than a OEM t-stat will cause problems It has been tried many times with poor results. A colder engine also will not be lubricated as well and the colder temp will pull the timing back. Even with a FPR what happens is that the O2 sensor will quickly sense the richer mixture and cut the injectors back. I think that the main advantages of a FPR are a better spray pattern, compensation for higher boost pressures, and better delivery at high RPM. The best way of adding fuel is doing it when it is really needed to maintain a proper mixture. One example of this is some of the Impreza people are now leaning out the mixture with an adjustable MAP sensor clamp and they are gaining about 5 hp at the high end. I consider this to be risky and it will be real good for engine rebuilders if they go a little to far with this approch.
Maybe I should post a picture of our slightly used piston collection.

AL(CO)
al@iwtu.net

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IAT and the Next Level G-Box

IAT and the Next Level G-Box