Car Won't Start When It's Damp or Cold SOLVED

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:09 pm

UPDATE: Below is a summarized description of my original problem followed by the solution I think I found.

Just tried to start my '92 Legacy L this morning and the engine turned but it wouldn't start. It feels like it's just on the verge of starting but it just won't. It has come close to failing to start before, but this is the first time it has.

The reason I think it's electrical is that when I'm trying to start the car (and the key is in the start position for more than a second) only the airbag and battery lights come on. The oil and check engine lights go out as they should when starting.

Also, it's worth noting that I have not driven in the past two days, during which is has rained a lot.

Also it seems that the car won't start below 28 degrees F, and sometimes won't start when it's as high as 40 when it's been recently cold.

I had the starter tested and the battery and alternator load tested at a local auto place and they found no fault in those.

UPDATE: So, that cause of all this hard or nonexistent starting was worn to Hell spark plugs. I just replaced them and the gap was massive along with the electrodes being rounded. I also put on new NGK wires so I shouldn't see this problem again (and throttle response is up

). Well, in case you didn't (as I didn't), now you know!

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:12 am

Okay, update.

I got a jump start from my mom's minivan before I went to work, but it didn't work right away. I have to have her rev really high and I had to try three time even then, so god knows if the jump start even did anything. On the way to work the car lurked and felt like something was pulling it back.

After work it started and ran just fine, however I have JUST now check the oil, and it seems to be DANGEROUSLY low. I just don't know where it went! I'm worried that might be the problem. I intended on changing the oil soon, I think I'll do it tomorrow and and see what comes out.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:46 pm

My car is suffering this problem, moreso yesterday than any other day.

it's been raining alot lately, I know I've got a weak positive battery connector but it's still secure - just wearing through

When I try to crank mine and it begins to misbehave, it usually starts trying to turn over, it may make half of one revolution, and then it makes the starter sound like it's actually turning backwards because the solenoid is still engaged but there's not enough amperage.

when it acts normally, it turns over fine, not slow at all.

I think my problem is just the battery connectors are wearing out.

your problem could be a cable.

if there's enough amperage to engage the solenoid but not enough amperage to turn the starter (say a bad battery) what should happen is that it'll make a rapid clicking noise as the voltage drops, the battery will not supply enough voltage to the solenoid, so it will disengage, then the voltage will come back up and essentially rinse and repeat.

I've also heard it can be due to a clutch switch going out.

remember that if you're showing at least some on the dipstick (oil) then you're still OK, you're just low. dangerously low is 2 quarts or lower, that's when pretty much all of the oil in the pan is somewhere in the engine, and if you make a tight turn then you'll expose the pump pickup to air, not oil.

check your connectors to your battery and to your alternator for corrosion.

a good battery charging voltage is 14-14.4 volts, no higher
a good battery engine off voltage is 11.5-13 volts (you'll have a 'suface charge' right after the engine cuts off, that will go away overnight)

anything lower than 9 volts when cranking will kill the starter.

Hope this helps.

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:57 pm

This has all been very helpful. I just retested the battery and it still runs 11 volts cold, but I'm still reluctant to start it because it's so low on oil. I also checked out the oil level. The oil level is in the middle of the twist in the metal of the dipstick just below the low mark. Scary. I think I'll call a friend to pick me up so I can get everything I need to change the oil.

magicmike · Post by **magicmike** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:58 pm

If there is any oil on the stick at all its safe enough to drive to the store and buy some oil. when its at the bottom of the stick you need to add 1 quart so you should at leaste have 3 quarts in there.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:21 pm

Soul Shinobi wrote:This has all been very helpful. I just retested the battery and it still runs 11 volts cold, but I'm still reluctant to start it because it's so low on oil. I also checked out the oil level. The oil level is in the middle of the twist in the metal of the dipstick just below the low mark. Scary. I think I'll call a friend to pick me up so I can get everything I need to change the oil.

well i just bought a starter and installed it in the rain (44F here today)

and that was my problem, dead starter, 14 years of service, couldn't ask for more.

the little leaflet in the box said battery voltages listed as follows:
12.6V = 100% charged
12.4V = 75% charged
12.2V = 50% charged
12V = 25% charged
<11.8 = discharged

so, sounds like you got a dead battery bub.

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 pm

Huh, that's interesting... I'd like a second opinion on that. I do wonder though how many things might be faulty in my car. The alternator is very old and I think I also have a stock starter. Plus I've heard a lot about bad connections being the blame more often than the devices they connect to. My battery is fairly new, as far as car batteries go so I'd have to be something else.

When driving the car exhibits only one characteristic of a dying altenator. Sometimes, and not that often, the idle speed varies bouncing up and down just a bit. But that could be something else too... Who knows...

Fishy · Post by **Fishy** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:15 pm

I'm not sure about where you live but around here you can pull your battery and take it into the parts store to have it load tested for free.
some places even do alternators as well. might want to have them checked out on a machine.

I've been known to drive to the place with a pocket full of wrenches, take the battery out, get it tested, and put it back in the car to drive home on. for some reason people look at me like I'm a hillbilly when I do this!

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:37 am

Wow. Actually most places here will test alternators and batteries for free. I'm surely not knowledgeable enough to remove and reinstall the alternator though. I wonder if they'll test it in car around here... I'll have to call and ask around.

I changed the oil today, car is running fine so far.

EDIT: 5 quarts of oil brought it up to Full like it should. Also, the battery runs a good 13 volts while the car is idling.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:48 am

Soul Shinobi wrote:Wow. Actually most places here will test alternators and batteries for free. I'm surely not knowledgeable enough to remove and reinstall the alternator though. I wonder if they'll test it in car around here... I'll have to call and ask around.

I changed the oil today, car is running fine so far.

Three bolts hold your alternator on, well actually two, but you need to actuate three to get it loose.

then you have two connectors I believe at the top.

all of this is pretty straight forward, but you can do your own test on your alternator without even taking it off by just testing the voltage with the car at idle, if it's not above 14V, and it doesn't go up with slight throttle (say to bring the car up to 1000 rpms, mine idles at 450-500) then you've got a bad alternator and your battery probably won't be too far behind it.

and I say that because it's been my experience that if you discharge a battery more than 50%, it's only a matter of time before it'll be toast again, most typical lead acid batteries cannot recover from that. deep cycle batteries can.

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:28 am

I'd be reluctant to remove it because I've broken tools trying to loosen one of the bolts so that I could put a grounding wire to it. I actually had once tested and alternator in the way you're describing, and it simply didn't occur to me that this would be the primary way to test it. I think I'll go do it now.

On a side note I drove the car after changing the oil and it's rather smooth, and the starting is smooth and responsive. I think that was the problem. But I'll test the alt now anyway.

EDIT: Okay, tested it. Results:

Battery voltage = 11
Battery voltage with car on = 13
Alt terminal B to ground = 11
Alt terminal B to ground with car on = 13
Alt terminal S (No. 2) to ground = 11
Alt terminal S (No. 2) to ground with car on = 13
Alt terminal IG (No. 4) to ground = 11
Alt terminal IG (No. 4) to ground with car on = 12

Tests were done as described in the Haynes manual. Notice the one volt drop from the IG terminal. Also, compared to the voltages talked about in the manual and this topic, all my voltages are low; however, my voltmeter is very much on the cheap side. Either way, might I have a problem?

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:59 am

Wow, this thread sounds exactly like what I'm going through on my Infiniti G20. Have to get someone to jump the car and rev their car to 3000 rpm or above; starter cranks and then fails to crank; takes a long, long time and several tries to start it up. I have ordered a new starter and will get a new battery and I'm going to install them over Thanksgiving. Apparently dead starters are fairly common with Nissan's SR20-family engines, and the battery is 6 or more years old anyway.

My Legacy's battery is dying too... I've spent over $1300 on the Infiniti since mid-July (engine, radiator, brakes, CV axle, AC compressor, starter, body panels, diagnostic cable, speedo cable, backup light sensor, etc.). That's not counting all the tools I've bought either. I still need to buy the battery and suspension parts, as well as the battery and suspension parts and an axle for the Legacy. Someone kill me please.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:54 pm

Soul Shinobi wrote:I'd be reluctant to remove it because I've broken tools trying to loosen one of the bolts so that I could put a grounding wire to it. I actually had once tested and alternator in the way you're describing, and it simply didn't occur to me that this would be the primary way to test it. I think I'll go do it now.

On a side note I drove the car after changing the oil and it's rather smooth, and the starting is smooth and responsive. I think that was the problem. But I'll test the alt now anyway.

EDIT: Okay, tested it. Results:

Battery voltage = 11
Battery voltage with car on = 13
Alt terminal B to ground = 11
Alt terminal B to ground with car on = 13
Alt terminal S (No. 2) to ground = 11
Alt terminal S (No. 2) to ground with car on = 13
Alt terminal IG (No. 4) to ground = 11
Alt terminal IG (No. 4) to ground with car on = 12

Tests were done as described in the Haynes manual. Notice the one volt drop from the IG terminal. Also, compared to the voltages talked about in the manual and this topic, all my voltages are low; however, my voltmeter is very much on the cheap side. Either way, might I have a problem?

yes you've got too much voltage drop, I would clean all contacts on the battery and the ones on the alternator as well that connect to the battery, if that doesn't help, do the same for your major ground wires or replace them if necessary.

your problem isn't uncommon in our cars, the grounding system is adequate from the factory, but over the years it becomes much less so.

Your alternator isn't putting out enough voltage, this could be just purely to the electrical problems you're having with voltage drop - you need to see 14 volts from the alternator to charge the battery properly.

it may run fine now, but if you ever get into a situation where you're having other problems and it will crank but it won't start, you'll kill your battery and your starter in the process.

Low volts (below 9 volts) kills starters easily because the current is over their rating and it generates lots of heat. I wouldn't be surprise if you're sliding into and just under 9 volts when you're cranking.

my battery is a good 12.5 volts and it slides down into 10 volts when cranking.

anyway, enough of that, look into your wires coming off the alternator, and your ground wires coming off the chassis and the block - if your starter setup is like mine, the negative cable to the battery is attached to the bottom or top bolt of the starter.

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:33 pm

I've replaced the grounding system with ground wires going from the battery to the:

transmission
intake manifold
radiator
grounding point by the driver strut
grounding point by the driver headlight

I intend to ground to the engine block and the alternator, I'm trying to find a way to (lots of rust in the way).

And I thoroughly cleaned the battery and its connections when I did as I've heard before of this car's grounding issues. I only replaced the battery wire that goes to the transmission including the wire that grounds to above the driver headlight. Also, I replaced the ends of the three grounding wires by the each top strut and crimped on new ends and cleaned the contact areas. I did this about a month ago.

Okay, I just took my voltmeter to the car. It seems to start okay for now, and when I (well actually my girlfriend) starts it I read a drop to just below 10 volts. Battery still reads a solid 11 when the car is off. I assume it still reads 13 when the car is idling.

So I guess I should try to clean the contacts on the alternator connections, and maybe the ones to the starter too?

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:20 pm

Soul Shinobi wrote:I've replaced the grounding system with ground wires going from the battery to the:

transmission
intake manifold
radiator
grounding point by the driver strut
grounding point by the driver headlight

I intend to ground to the engine block and the alternator, I'm trying to find a way to (lots of rust in the way).

And I thoroughly cleaned the battery and its connections when I did as I've heard before of this car's grounding issues. I only replaced the battery wire that goes to the transmission including the wire that grounds to above the driver headlight. Also, I replaces the ends of the three grounding wires by the top each strut and crimped on new ends and cleaned the contact areas. I did this about a month ago.

Okay, I just took my voltmeter to the car. It seems to start okay for now, and when I (well actually my girlfriend) starts it I read a drop to just below 10 volts. Battery still reads a solid 11 when the car is off. I assume it still reads 13 when the car is idling.

So I guess I should try to clean the contacts on the alternator connections, and maybe the ones to the starter too?

shouldn't be any problems with the starter connections, after 14 years mine were corrosion free.

Your voltmeter very well may be so inaccurate that it's one volt off, although that's extremely poor for it to be that way, I would invest in a good one (I spent $80 USD on mine and it does just about everything except service me, which I'm extremely disappointed with)

if that's the case, then your problem is probably not extremely severe.

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:32 pm

But I may still have a bit of a problem. I'll check the connections to the alternator sometime soon. Yeah my voltmeter is pretty damn cheap, like $5. I do want a good one, I'm just reluctant to spend money--but I'll guess I'll have to sooner or later.

Actually I'm looking online for some digital multimeters now, would you happen to know any good brand names?

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:14 am

Alright, something is just beginning to fail. My guess would be either alternator or starter. I don't know how old the alternator is (is does look very old) but I'm pretty sure the starter is stock.

The car seems to struggle a bit when starting cold now. It seems to start after a few cranks of the starter just when I think it's going to fail to start--it starts just before the signal to stop trying gets from my brain to my hand. It does start on the first turn of the engine (I think) but the start is not quick to come.

I'm not sure if it's the alternator (despite the poor voltage ratings, see my quote below) because I'm not getting the poor and fluctuating performance in all lights like I did when the alternator died in the Mercury Mountaineer I drove a year ago, but perhaps that SUV is designed quite differently.

Winter is coming and I'm worried that I'm going to be stuck not being able to start, but I'd have to get a forward on some cash if both the alternator and starter need replacing, and I don't want to just replace one at random either. What should I do?

My voltage test results:

Soul Shinobi wrote: Battery voltage = 11
Battery voltage with car on = 13
Alt terminal B to ground = 11
Alt terminal B to ground with car on = 13
Alt terminal S (No. 2) to ground = 11
Alt terminal S (No. 2) to ground with car on = 13
Alt terminal IG (No. 4) to ground = 11
Alt terminal IG (No. 4) to ground with car on = 12

Tests were done as described in the Haynes manual. Notice the one volt drop from the IG terminal. Also, compared to the voltages talked about in the manual and this topic, all my voltages are low; however, my voltmeter is very much on the cheap side. Either way, might I have a problem?

subytech · Post by **subytech** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:21 am

First you need to check voltage drop at the wires from the battery to:

-negative post of the battery to ground connection at the starter
-positive post at the battery to positive connection at the starter
-and the BATT cable running from the battery to the alternator.

To do this you simply set your voltmeter to volts and place one lead at the conection at one end of the wire and the other lead at the connection at the other end of the wire and have someone crank the engine. Make sure you dissable the ign. system or fuel system so the car does not start, this will tell you how much voltage is used up in the cable itself becuase of corosion or bad connections. You should get no more than one half of a volt (0.5V), if you have more you need to clean the connections or replace tha wire/cable.

After this you really need to see if you can get you're batt, and alternator load tested, volt readings are all fine and good but they really dont mean much without amperage readings along with them and you need a load tester to read the kind of amps starters and alternators draw/put out.

Also one of the best names in DMMs (Digital Multi-Meters) is Fluke, there automotive specific meter is the Fluke 88 but I dont think many of us have $500-$600 laying around for a meter

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:04 am

Jeez, okay, after going back and fourth over this in my head I called Pep Boys, and it turns out they load test the alternator, battery, and test the starter for only $20 total, so I think I'll do that.

Ah dammit, I can only imagine that something's wrong with either the alternator or starter, but I'm so scared of having to pour more and more money into this lovely car...

Soul Shinobi · Post by **Soul Shinobi** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:55 am

Alright, I found the problem and updated the first post with the solution in case anyone else is as much of a newbie as me.

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Car Won't Start When It's Damp or Cold SOLVED

Car Won't Start When It's Damp or Cold SOLVED