Came to a conclusion about the Impreza line....

Post by **Legacy777** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:47 pm

After performing all the maintenance work I've done on this car, I've come to a conclusion about the engineering/design goal of it. It was designed to be as cheap as possible.

There's so many little things that were changed to cut costs when compared to the first gen legacy. The ac line runs directly along the frame rail next to the hot engine on the passenger side instead of up along the fender liner. The engine wiring loom/connectors are at the rear of the engine instead of behind the battery to reduce the amount of wire needed. Although it's not really a cheaper issue, it's an annoying issue....there's less space between the radiator and front of the engine. I couldn't get an impact wrench in to loosen the crank pulley. Another annoying thing is that the air box/resonator crap has to be removed in order to check/change the trans fluid.

There's a few other odds & ends that I can't think of now. This may be true on the 2nd gen legacies as well, but it's really quite a disgusting feeling to see how the cars have been cheapened down....and to the point where they are pain to work on. I don't want to do a damn thing more to that car in terms of engine maintenance....and I'm hoping I'm set for a while with all the crap I did this past weekend.

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:14 pm

Finally, someone agrees with me about the 1st Gen Legacies being superior to Imprezas...

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:50 pm

It's a conspiracy I tell you...

Josh,
I am not disagreeing with your assertion, but some of your points don't hold water. On the Imprezas, the NA cars have always had the wiring come through the firewall while the turbo cars continued to run it through the fender for MY94-98. Then for '99-00 even the WRX went through the firewall, and from '01 and later they went back to behind the battery. I see NOTHING to suggest that any of it had anything to do with saving wires...

Aside from that, there are a number of little niggling trim type things that are definitely cheaper on the early GC/GF body Imprezas. They started to get nicer in '98, and by MY00 they were pretty much back up to the standards of the Legacy...

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:23 pm

I will agree with Matt, my friend's 2000 2.5 RS is a definately nicer car than the earlier GC/GF cars I have been in.

I still wouldn't trade my SS for any Impreza product

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:18 am

My actions in the very near future will make my statement for me. I am in a position where I only get to keep the newly acquired '91 SS 5spd OR my MY00 RS that I have sworn repeatedly that I would drive until I die. I'm selling the Impreza...

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:29 am

I believe you are making quite a good choice...

Plus...between boost and no boost...I would always have to go with the first one

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:42 am

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:33 am

whats up with the lack of vented rear rotors? and the wrx has only 6.5" wide rims when the Rs has 7"s!!!!!

Matt Monson · Post by **Matt Monson** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:35 pm

555BCTurbo wrote:

I believe you are making quite a good choice...

Plus...between boost and no boost...I would always have to go with the first one

boost fhag...

I never said I was selling my built Ej25. That engine is going in my wife's car. In all honesty, I don't know if I could do it if it weren't for my wife driving a '99 RS...

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:27 pm

I understand your point Matt. There seems to be a little bit of changing back and forth between how they routed things, etc. Without knowing all the in's and out's for those decisions one can only speculate.

However I still believe cost savings were behind some of the intermediate changes. It may not be the sole reason, but they probably had some influence.

Manufacturing technology changed quite a bit in late 90's and early 2000's, so I think auto manufacturers were able to save money in this way, rather then "cut" corners.

Just my 2 cents

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:28 pm

Imprezive wrote:whats up with the lack of vented rear rotors? and the wrx has only 6.5" wide rims when the Rs has 7"s!!!!!

Rear vented rotors are really more hype then anything else. The chances of you noticing a difference with them on anything but serious track driving is not likely to occur.

Post by **DLC** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:30 pm

Remember that the 95-99 Legacy models introduced the rear drum brakes to the Legacy for the first time, and they dropped the turbo models because of the cost of making them emissions compliant.

The mid-90s were a bad time for Subaru, but that's all seemed to turn around with three simple letters: W R X

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:50 pm

DLC wrote:and they dropped the turbo models because of the cost of making them emissions compliant.

I always wondered why they did that

Post by **DLC** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:51 pm

That's what I've heard from a few sources, Car & Driver was one of them I think. It's also worth noting that Turbo sales were a measly %5 or so of total Legacy sales anyway, so it wasn't really missed.

Oh, and C&D also said that they gave us the SOHC EJ22 with no intercooler because the DOHC EJ20 was too expensive. Wha?

Another bad thing about the 95-99 models is that the first EJ25 was premium fuel, and the rest of them were heavily prone to repeated HG failures. I'd say it's probably a good thing that the 98 RS was the only Impreza to get that engine.

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:39 am

Legacy777 wrote:
Imprezive wrote:whats up with the lack of vented rear rotors? and the wrx has only 6.5" wide rims when the Rs has 7"s!!!!!
Rear vented rotors are really more hype then anything else. The chances of you noticing a difference with them on anything but serious track driving is not likely to occur.

yeah probably, but they should have them anyways!

Yukonart · Post by **Yukonart** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:04 am

Well, you have to look at things from an economic standpoint, guys. Owning a 2005 Legacy shows me that it's all about the bottom line . . . and it's probably going to stay that way. Subaru's fighting for market share and profits, just like any company . . . and if they can cut a few corners without the majority of its owners complaining, then they figure they're doing just fine. *shrug*

That said, another thing to consider with the Impreza is that it's Subaru's VALUE model, pure and simple. Of course you're going to miss things that the Leggos have. Also, simplifying some of the design aspects of the Impreza helps to lessen weight, as well. Granted, some of the changes will be annoying to those of us who actually work on them, the vast majority of the owners will never know, much less care.

The Impreza is what it is. Personally, the only one I can stomach myself is the STi, for obvious reasons. My LGT has been an amazing performer, but for all its refinements and comfort, it just can't compete with the stock "fun factor" my STi posessed . . . sorry Nick.

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:42 pm

I hear you Art....and I know that.....I think at some point I will look at picking up a new LGT....and then sell the impreza.

I just can't fit it into the bill right now. I was looking at my student loan payments last night. I will have paid close to $9,000 this year to pay off my student loans. Granted that is a lot more then I have to pay, but there's no way I'm going to do the payment schedule they have. I wouldn't have it payed off until May of 2017!!

Yukonart · Post by **Yukonart** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:53 pm

Good call, Josh!

Look for a sale sign in the LGT by next summer. Once I buy a place to live I'll be looking at switching cars again. You know. . . if you want an LGT wagon with a 5MT, that is.

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:00 pm

I'll see where I'm at next year and what my financial state is. But I know you take care of your cars too

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:27 am

I can see why they put vented rotors on the rear of the twgns.

Extra weight when loaded and coming down mountain passes, with only 15 inch wheels.

Some paved, but 2-lane, roads in southern B C have up to 15% grades.

. Add in a 95 F day and it's good to have a lot of heat disappation at both ends.

subytech · Post by **subytech** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:05 am

Random note about subaru's cheep cars, I do have to say that the brighton legacy seats have the most side bolstering of any non WRX subaru i've ever sat in! and in my opinion there even better than the early WRX's

But yea workin on them day to day you deffinatly notice that the mid 90's were a hard time for subaru here in the states. Boring cars with boring engines with cheep boring interiors, all for the purpose of producing a cheep car to get them back into the market. Its easy to say that subaru is popular liveing in the northwest but honestly what kind of regular joe shmo needs an AWD CAR in texas?

206er · Post by **206er** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:09 am

talk as much smack as you want about how cheapo imprezas are, the lightest ones are around 600lbs lighter than a legacy.

555BCTurbo · Post by **555BCTurbo** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:38 pm

Yukonart wrote:
The Impreza is what it is. Personally, the only one I can stomach myself is the STi, for obvious reasons. My LGT has been an amazing performer, but for all its refinements and comfort, it just can't compete with the stock "fun factor" my STi posessed . . . sorry Nick.

Oh, no I don't doubt for a second that the STi was more fun...it was also a $30,000+ car...and every STi I have been in feels like it was very well built...but the Imprezas I am referring to are the ones like Josh's car...the new generation of them has become a lot better, but the Legacy has become even better...so it still gets my vote...

New Spec B > STi

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:08 pm

555BCTurbo wrote:New Spec B > STi

Amen brotha!

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:40 am

subyluvr2212 wrote:
555BCTurbo wrote:New Spec B > STi
Amen brotha!

+ 1

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Came to a conclusion about the Impreza line....

Came to a conclusion about the Impreza line....