(RANT) It may be time to say goodbye...

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:33 am

My friend has been trying to talk me into working on my extra EJ22 engine and I've been giving it some serious thought after my '93 has been sitting for three years. For what seems like forever, I've been dreaming of 300+ hp from my stock NA engine. Come to find out recently that my both of my NA engines (according to you guys) are NOT closed-deck. IMO it defies the laws of manufacturing and business to make two different block designes for basically the same car. So the mere thought that the NA block would be any different was rubbish to me until now. Yes, that kind of engineering was left only to the elite turbo blocks (wtf Subaru) which are somewhat hard to find and not that cheap. Of course, a few years back I bought a complete NA engine with 70k on it naively thinking I could build it outside of the car and drop it in. Well after spending a couple hours on this forum doing research it seems I've come to an impass.

Sure, I could just drop in some TT JDM engine, or a WRX engine, but then where is the love for the good old EJ22? It's a unique engine! It's all 2.5's and 2.0's nowadays and there's no love out in that cold world for and old 2.2. But what am I left with? After market parts for everything BUT my EJ22 and if I want any real power, it would take way too much time and money than what it's worth.

What you wanna turbo your EJ22E?? Ha Ha!
1. No closed-deck
2. No oil-squirters
3. CR too high
4. Cast piston heads
5. something about valves not as strong
on..and on.. and on...

So here I am. I say screw it. Sell my extra EJ22 and sell my whole '93. Is idea of building this car just getting too complicated?

I need a reality check.

All_talk · Post by **All_talk** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:27 pm

Remember, if it were easy, everyone would do it. Effort brings reward.

Do your homework, make a plan, it will be a compromise between lust and budget. And once you figure out how much it will cost in time and money... double both of them.

Just some lessons I've learned (In my case I always triple the time)

Gary

P.S. I'd start with a Turbo block.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:31 pm

None of that has stopped Douglas Vincent

You say it makes no business sense to make two different blocks for essentially the same car. Well, it also would make no business sense to use the much-more-expensive closed-deck block (which is also cast differently than the NA block) for the NA applications.

I say big deal. Closed-deck isn't THAT big of a deal. The Phase I bottom end is in danger of failing before the benefits of a closed-deck engine become apparent. Not to mention it sacrifices cooling.

The EJ205 WRX engine is just as open-deck as your EJ22, and that hasn't stopped some people from making over 300hp.

The turbo pistons are cast as well, but differently.

And your engine has the same forged crank and rods that the turbo engine does.

So don't discredit your engine quite so quickly

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:43 am

The reason for the different block was to homologate it for rallying.

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:54 am

Well I guess if these WRX tuners are making that kind of power out of a similar engine, then its possible. It just seems like its already difficult to make any serious headway with this engine, as I'm sure you all can attest to.

A goal of 300 is an ambitious one, and I see tons of WRX guys somewhat easily making that power. This can seem defeating.

However, I appreciate the kind words. I may just hang in there and start tearing down that other engine. I just wanted a reality check before I start putting lots of time and money into this project.

P.S. The homologation of the car makes sense, but I think it would of been more cost effective and easier to just make the EJ22 closed for every model. I know its more expensive, but then you can spread your costs over the hundreds of thousands sold.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:21 am

evolutionmovement wrote:The reason for the different block was to homologate it for rallying.

They use and have always used a 2.0 in rally.

But yeah SWRT still uses closed deck sti ver3 blocks the last I heard.

If you want reliable power it's definitely the way to go.

206er · Post by **206er** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:26 am

not too sure about the valves not as strong bit, they are pretty much the same as 22t but very slightly bigger. valve strength isnt usually an issue anyhow.
subaru did save money with the open deck & different casting proccess otherwise they would not have done it. think about how many 22e's were made vs how many 22t's. even a dollar or two per block would really add up.
a good tune, some sort of charge cooling, the right turbo and sure 300hp out of a 22e is doable. hell it would probably make 400hp for a short while if you knew what you were doing.
if you are just looking to do it cheap by using the stock engine then 300hp probably is a bit far off. even piecing together a ghetto setup that would be reliable is a good chunk of change. lots of nickel n dime shit.
the 22e block makes a fine starting point for boost but youll be ahead if you do something to lower the compression. 2.5L heads, 22t stock pistons, machine some off of stock pistons etc.
It's up to you wether or not to get rid of it. being fwd, I don't think I'd turbo it at all let alone a 300hp setup.

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:47 am

the 22e block makes a fine starting point for boost but youll be ahead if you do something to lower the compression. 2.5L heads, 22t stock pistons, machine some off of stock pistons etc.

I was planning on getting new piston heads that are forged and would lower the CR too.

It's up to you wether or not to get rid of it. being fwd, I don't think I'd turbo it at all let alone a 300hp setup.

There's nothing wrong with FWD!! (yes I am a loyal Subaru fan). My car is lighter than yours...

thehookeup · Post by **thehookeup** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:52 am

yea all i have to say really is doug vincent....never cracked a cylinder wall, and im not sure but he hasnt blown many head gaskets if any...

but the guy had run nearly 30 psi on open deck blocks. 2.2's have proven themselves time and time again. i say keep the 2.2 blue print it down to the last detail, then if you build it, the 300 will come...

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:12 pm

There's nothing wrong with FWD when you have 130hp. There is when you have 300hp. Ask the SRT4 guys (if you are lucky enough to find an intelligent one).

Aside from that, I wouldn't feel all that great about running 300hp through an old, outdated, worn-out chassis.

Pipe dreams are fun, but without some serious research (and money), you won't get far with them.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:55 pm

The turbo block required a die cast and sand cast build method so it was pretty expensive. Yes, the USDM is 2.2 vs. 2.0, but the block was designed that way for homologation purposes. That Subaru upped capacity a little for the USDM to increase the torque preferred here doesn't negate its origin. Back then, Subaru used to overbuild everything so why not use the stronger block as the base for their new turbo?

206er · Post by **206er** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:35 pm

Mr.Pessimist wrote:
There's nothing wrong with FWD!! (yes I am a loyal Subaru fan). My car is lighter than yours...

last winter I got lots of use out of my strap pulling out fwd cars.
there are fwd's I'd consider owning but they mostly weigh around 1800lbs and arent subarus.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:12 am

The only time I had a problem with fwd was when I had worn performance tires and lived on a steep hill. My old fwd GLs would punch out of snow banks taller than the hood with just a throw in reverse and a change into 1st. At most, I'd have to repeat that a couple times, but usually it would just claw through with the Bridgestone all-seasons in it. Usually with the Legacy I slipped around less than 4wd pick ups and AWD SUVs. They only had the edge on initial acceleration.

asc_up · Post by **asc_up** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:24 am

206er wrote:
Mr.Pessimist wrote:
There's nothing wrong with FWD!! (yes I am a loyal Subaru fan). My car is lighter than yours...
last winter I got lots of use out of my strap pulling out fwd cars.
there are fwd's I'd consider owning but they mostly weigh around 1800lbs and arent subarus.

lol i pulled 2 honda civics and 1 acura integra out of the snow and towed them up a hill (without chains) to their house. it felt awesome haha.

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:11 am

Only problem I've had is in the snow with my 17x7 wheels on. Then I got a set of studless snow tires and could rock my FWD up to the mountain all day long. Heck, I survived three winters in Klamath Falls with that FWD, no problem. Those 5MTs have great gearing.

There is no doubt that AWD is better in adverse situations than FWD. Thats why I've got a Baja. But for street, my FWD with 17's feels great.

dropdfocus · Post by **dropdfocus** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:39 am

So are you back in the game or still looking to climb out of the Subaru Owner's pool?

SubaruNation · Post by **SubaruNation** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:57 am

feel free to correct me but i read an issue of sport compact car, and they (someone in hawaii) had a normally awd rex (wrx) that he converted to rwd for drifting it think...
he locked the center differenial, or did something to it and made it rwd.

couldn't you somehow manipulate something to make your car awd?

just wondering out loud, again feel free...

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:01 am

Yeah, you could get an AWD transmission, gas tank and hardware, rear differential, driveshaft, axles, rear suspension arms, spindles, and struts.

tahiti350 · Post by **tahiti350** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:52 am

Easiest way is to buy a wrecked AWD and swap the parts you need, sell your good parts and whatever is still good on the donor to make your money back, and have a nice day...

dropdfocus · Post by **dropdfocus** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:05 am

My buddy did it with his turbo'd '98 Impreza. He removed the front axle shaft (left the stubs) and it worked just fine. Made for one HELL of a burn out machine! He eventually put replacement front axles in and made it AWD again.

Mr.Pessimist · Post by **Mr.Pessimist** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:12 am

Yeah, I think I'm back in the game again. As long as I can make 300hp from that engine I'll do it. It's not like it's going to happen tomorrow but if it is reasonably possible then I'm happy. If WRX guys are doing it with an open deck engine, I should be able to as well.

So I'm going to start dismantling that extra engine and see what happens. Probably do a port and polish and clean everything. Any suggestions on things to do to make it the best NA engine possible before turbo?

thehookeup · Post by **thehookeup** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:39 am

pistons pistons pistions, they can make or break ya

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(RANT) It may be time to say goodbye...

(RANT) It may be time to say goodbye...