Wanting to turbo my 91 legacy L 2.2

[bossdoc83]

Any tips, suggestions and any other feed back. I think I am able to just get the turbo, crossmember and other parts I need and just bolt it on. No ECU change, wiring harness change or anything. All I would do is run oil/coolant lines along with a few mods to make it work.

Yay or Nay?

[555BCTurbo]

Any tips, suggestions and any other feed back. I think I am able to just get the turbo, crossmember and other parts I need and just bolt it on. No ECU change, wiring harness change or anything. All I would do is run oil/coolant lines along with a few mods to make it work.

Yay or Nay?

Nowhere near that easy...

Your ECU won't like boost...as it isn't programmed to recognize positive pressure. The people here that are running NA ECUs usually have a piggyback computer or an SAFC.

[Steeper]

you would think so, experience has told me otherwise. the legacy 2.2 computer is so stump dumb it doesnt even realise its getting boost, it just sees the extra airflow from the MAF and gives more fuel to compensate. I have 2 friends, both running 2.2 turbo motors on NA computers ('cause thats what they had, figured lets give it a try) 1 of which uses his in a sick buggy for mud drags, runs 20 PSI into it and no issues other than it does lean out at that range (he rebuilds every few events)

we have also run NA bottom ends, and literaly just bolted the turbo heads on, then you get the oil lines and the turbo cams. Nice thing is, you do this with parts that people are throwing away, like stock manifolds, turbo sohc heads and VF11.

If I was going to do that, I would just run waistgate boost, no controller, will still be faster than a stock turbo car. Also put on a air/fuel meter, just incase, even if you just borrow one for a week or 2 to make sure you arent getting lean anywhere. ALSO you wont have boost cut, SO if your wastegate doesnt open for whatever reason, you will have all kinds of bad stuff! boost guage!

holy long post. look through the parts shed for stock turbo parts, or post a WTB and do some research. just know that it WILL work, but it WILL ruin your engine if you do it wrong.

[evolutionmovement]

Plan to use airplane fuel? That's a high compression ratio to run turboed, unintercooled, with small injectors and an ECU that has no idea what's going on. I would guess that if he's asking about doing this so cheaply, he can't afford to have the car down all the time. You still have a knock sensor and I would bet you'd be running in limp-home a lot.

Other than the oil/coolant line the turbo heads are barely different from the N/A (and the N/A can be tapped like the turbo). The cam grinds aren't radically different and the intake valves on the N/A are actually a little larger.

My recommendation is to get a turbo long block, rebuild it, and swap it at your leisure. A parts car might even be cheaper and you'll have everything you need (theoretically).

[BXSS]

You can make a ghetto turbo kit with a N/A computer.
You'd just want to clamp MAF voltage @ the max reading before a CEL pops up (maybe you will not have to clamp if you do not hit that CEL voltage # - ? on exact # as my car is MAP).
This was the Turbo Honda industry in the mid 90's (with the missing link (check valve) not allowing the MAP to see boost).

+1 on a 5psi (Vf11) Na high comp motor killing a 11psi or under low comp turbo motor - I know first hand as I have both set-ups (high comp/low boost - 8.5psi OBS-T & low comp/med boost - 18psi LSS).

With a basic set-up you'll want to keep boost low (5psi max)allowing the Med-High comp (9.5-10:1) & N/A timing advance make you power, but real racecars run high comp/high boost.
Rhys Millen's Drift-car - 13.7:1 comp + boost (airplane gas-?)
Our Welfare Racing Starlet (not even in the same league) 10.5:1 Compression & 35PSI on 112octane/H20 inj & Stock NA Timing advance - good for 9sec 1/4's....
Our competition's 3TC (1.8L) 10:1 comp ratio car @ 58psi & stock timing (runs on methanol - cheater!) - good for low 9's-high 8's in the 1/4.

The easiest form of extra fuel for a low boost set-up (5psi) would be the good old fahioned FMU (Vortech rise is adjustable from 3:1-12:1 with the plate kit) & a Walbro HP/HV fuel pump on your STOCK injectors - so you would not need to use aircraft fuel.
Injector flow is related to fuel pressure so the FMU is a GHETTO way of turning small injectors into large injector by raising the fuel pressure in proportion to boost (see RC eng's site for the fuel pressure vs flow formula).
This is what the FAT kit uses & old school Honda kits used with good results.

NGK 7 heat range plugs turbo gapped @ .028" should help keep ping down.

If you still get some Det with the plugs & FMU invest in an alky injection Kit (progressive controller) instead of a stupid timing controller to run full NA timing advance on boost with 0 knock & make extra power.

I'd put in an TMIC (unless you plan on alky injecting from the start).

With the alky the car should run for a long time & take a beating assuming you moniter EGT's & tune them to a safe temp.

As you get used to the power you'll eventually want more & begin to upgrade parts as needed (EM, injectors, turbo....), but the above is a decent low cost beginner Turbo KIT that will walk on stock e22t's.

good luck!

[BXSS]

Since you are turboing a BC Legacy you may want to look into getting the turbo ECU / sensors (injectors, MAF, MAP.....) & using them on your NA motor as the wiring is supposed to be super simple - repinning the cam/crank sensor wires & running the turbo specific wires (boost solenoid...).

With this set-up (stock LSS boost) the car should be quicker than a stock low comp ej22t (but I do not think it will be as quick as the ghetto set-up above as the timing advance is weak & AFR is RICH on the turbo ECU), a plus is that you can run a DOHC WRX EJ20G on the LSS ECU with no problems.

Parts to do the turbo ECU conversion should be cheap as it seems many people are going DOHC.

Blackbart would be your guy if you go this route.

[evolutionmovement]

Race cars that run high boost with high compression are built for it. This sounds like a "Can I slap a turbo on my 150k mile engine so I can accelerate faster?" kind of deal. So picture carbon build up and old cast pistons together with poor EM and small injectors. I see big SUV gas mileage and poor reliability, but I'm weird - I believe the purpose of a successful car is to get you places.

[Steeper]

yeah, but if you just want another 30 or 40 horse, the 5 psi boost "slapped" on the NA motor isn't necessarily going to kill it, just do it right and watch your shit. It doesnt need to be that difficult and I have seen a couple cars run just fine, pretty quick with nothing more than turbo heads, turbo, saab intercooler (and I think a ford one on one car) and a ghetto fab hood scoop.
crossmember and exhaust to support obviously. I am not suggesting you do this to a 200K motor with a leaky headgasket, unless you have an extra (and who doesnt have an extra 2.2 na lying around?) but a strong running 2.2 with a good tune up should take the abuse for a while (you will obviously be shortening its life by a bit, but who needs a 1/2million mile motor?)

I say go for it, I will someday turbo the 2.2NA motor going into my old mans Loyale once he gets bored with it and gives it to me... gonna hold on to my vf11 and stock mannifolds jst incase!

oh yeah, I dont think you GET a CEL with the NA computer when it hits boost, doesnt seem to even notice (mind you the buggy running 20PSI doesnt have a CEL so I dont know if it will when you push things)

[BXSS]

+1 with Steeper.
5psi done properly will not hurt anything on a good running motor.

My OBDII car is a PITA with CELs & it will throw a MAP high V code if it is not clamped, but with a v-clamp I have no CELs & pass OBDII plug in inspection with my OBS-T. The old computers are stupid (my LSS ECU is running a EJ20G) so you are probably right.

I turbod my Impreza @ 168K back in '04 & it ran fine until I had a Alky mishap @ 193K that was totally my fault.
Trannys may break (mines broke in about 2-3 weeks after turboing - no teeth on 2nd gear), but they are one of these cars weak links. The (+) about 2.2's over here is that they are almost disposable as they cost all of $66 @ my local you-pull-it, & there are always a few to choose from.

As far as being a gas guzzler I get 280-300 Miles (mixed) on a tank of gas if I take it easy with the pedal (still having a little fun every-day). If I have alot of fun I'll get 240-270 miles (mixed) from the 15.9 Gal tank in my Impreza (I run 5psi daily & 9psi on special occasions (HKS EVC makes this easy - just push the button)).
I drive about 1000-1500 miles per month so I need the Impreza to run efficiently with 93 costing $3.55+/gal in these parts right now.
My LSS does never even come close to this mileage in my mixed city driving even when it was a 100% stock ej22t

Motors having to be built for high comp+boost is not true in all cases it all depends on how much boost you'll run on the stock motor.
You are not going to push 58psi through a stock 2.2e with & have it last 1 pass, but 5psi will be OK.

The Starlet's motor is literally spare stock 12A parts that was put together with a sick port-job & aftermarket apex seals.
Here is some detail
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=32633
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic. ... c&start=25

Our friend's 3TC is a 1.8l Hemi head Toyota motor built with rod/pistons, cemented waterjackets, ported heads custom cams, & arp everything, but this guy runs REAL boost on methanol - 58psi.

Fuel has a big role in how far you can push things too, with leaded race fuel & meth. allowing for more aggressive tunes.

For street turbo/turbo converted NA cars I say Alky Injection is a Godsend.[/b]

[evolutionmovement]

I think he'd get bad mileage when he sets off the knock and it halls back timing and dumps fuel in or when he pushes the injectors to 100%. 5psi. It would be unlikely to stay that low. Power is like Doritos - it's too easy to eat the whole bag. I don't know this guy, what he expects to achieve, or his skill level, but I'd like him to know what he may be getting himself into and that if he expects a low maintenance daily driver he might end up aggravated and holding a bus pass. These cars are falling into the hands of first-time drivers and such now, so I can't assume anything. Then again, maybe he has 3 cars, races Locost 7's he's built himself, and got this thing for free and doesn't care. I'm just helping him with a worst case scenario.

[Steeper]

well put!

[ciper]

What is the flow rate of the stock NA injectors? I'd like to run a calculation on them.

[evolutionmovement]

I believe they're 270cc/min.

[ciper]

Ok this confuses me, verify this. Im trying to find the horsepower those injectors would support. Since the car would now be turbo that means the BSFC would be way higher.

I guessed BSFC to be about .6-.65 but with either of these the maximum HP is only 130-140. Seems like the stock injectors are "perfectly matched" for an NA engine and nothing else?

[evolutionmovement]

I think that's correct. If I remember old discussions from a few years back, the N/A injectors don't have much head room at all and the turbo ones aren't much better.

[ciper]

What is the stock flow of the Turbo injectors?

[evolutionmovement]

Looks like 370 according to a couple threads I looked at.

[asc_up]

that's what i've heard as well

[douglas vincent]

OK, as one that has boosted a stock NA 2.2, here i my view.

No cels.

Anyboost over 5 psi and it ran out of fuel.

I would run an intercooler no matter what, even though you probably don't need it. But it is a big factor in keeping a piston together.

[555BCTurbo]

you would think so, experience has told me otherwise. the legacy 2.2 computer is so stump dumb it doesnt even realise its getting boost, it just sees the extra airflow from the MAF and gives more fuel to compensate. I have 2 friends, both running 2.2 turbo motors on NA computers ('cause thats what they had, figured lets give it a try) 1 of which uses his in a sick buggy for mud drags, runs 20 PSI into it and no issues other than it does lean out at that range (he rebuilds every few events)

we have also run NA bottom ends, and literaly just bolted the turbo heads on, then you get the oil lines and the turbo cams. Nice thing is, you do this with parts that people are throwing away, like stock manifolds, turbo sohc heads and VF11.

If I was going to do that, I would just run waistgate boost, no controller, will still be faster than a stock turbo car. Also put on a air/fuel meter, just incase, even if you just borrow one for a week or 2 to make sure you arent getting lean anywhere. ALSO you wont have boost cut, SO if your wastegate doesnt open for whatever reason, you will have all kinds of bad stuff! boost guage!

holy long post. look through the parts shed for stock turbo parts, or post a WTB and do some research. just know that it WILL work, but it WILL ruin your engine if you do it wrong.

Ever stuck a wideband on any of your contraptions to see the AFRs on boost?

[Steeper]

never put a wideband, but under regular boost, everything is rich on a regular AFM. The buggy at 20psi is lean we know, recent addition is a 5th injector on a boost switch (7psi I think) but doesnt get much DET. its a low comp bottom end with twin cam heads tho. still a NA computer tho.

[ciper]

If the turbo injectors are 370cc then they should be able to support 255hp which is decent.

[BXSS]

Power being addictive & boost being too easy to turn up is true.
So I say stay @ 5psi or less for beginners.

I started my OBS-T @ 5psi & have run as high as 10psi (5 & 8.5-9psi being my normal low/hi settings) on my Alky'd MAP set-up. No Detonation, perfect EGT's, no probs - maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been lucky since '04.

The green top feeds on phaseII 2.2s flow exactly 261cc - I had some tested.
The grey top feeds from a pII 2.5rs flow about between 306-309cc - I had a set tested too.

The stock 2.2 PII 261cc greens on a 12:1 FMU plate (this is what I would suggest a beginner on a MAP 2.2 use) will flow 402.59cc @ 5psi with a 43.5 psi base (103.5 total fuel pressure @ 5psi, which is high, but will work) - nice & safely rich.
The + about the FMU is that it matches fuel rise to boost (more or less), the bad is that it is a bit of a hack & due to high fuel pressures you are limited to about 5psi & must use a walbro 255 hp/hv fuel pump.
That said there are way worse hacks for extra fuel - like dumping fuel via NOS jets/soleniod/p-switch or button into the intake which was my old school friend's bread & butter.

I can't say what FMU plate a MAF 2.2 would need as I do not have one of those, I remember reading something like 6:1 (which would be 339cc @ 5psi if they flow the same as the inj's I tested) - but you can't believe too much internet info (which is why I had the top feeds flowed)

Douglas Vincent, what fuel pump were you running, & did you ever use an FMU or did you rely on the MAF to richen things up when your car was 2.2 sohc?

[awdimprezal]

my 1996 (obd2) has been running for over a year now and has 3 different turbos on it, vf-11 td04, and now t3-t4 60 trim, it hasnt blown up yet, i have stock t-leg injectors and a RRFPR, turned down as far as it would go, on the dyno my AFRs were in the mid 11s on race gas and boost was 9 psi. it hasnt blown up yet, however i did blow a head gasket, but it wasnt because of boost, it was because of overheating once a long time ago.

[tmarcel]

Mine was an NA ('90 model) with WRX/STi turbo parts to make the transition. It pushed a HG after a few weeks running only wastegate spring pressure on a TD04 (about 6psi). The motor did have 190k miles on the clock I used an SAFC to dial in the fuel.

Now it has a 2.5L (STi pistons/rods) bottom-end, quality HGs, same SAFC for now, running a VF39 about 11psi spring pressure. Runs about 11:1 AFR (since I can't modify the spark with an SAFC) until I get the standalone in and then will map it out properly. I put about 150+ miles on it so far. This motor is quite happy at ~9:1 CR and 93 octane. Probably will run it daily at 17psi once it's all done.

As far as spark plugs. I'm running NGK heat range 7 plugs (BKR7EIX). The heat range does not stop detonation like was mentioned above. It will hinder pre-ignition which is not the same. Ordinarilly, you want to drop a heat range for every 100hp over the stock plug.

As far as your "L". Is that a FWD trans car? My poor little AWD AT is hating the power. The technology is old and the car will spin the shit out of the front tires before it realizes that it's spinning. Then it'll lock up 50/50 front-rear and then get going. Again, part throttle boost sucks as the fronts spin like crazy with the open diff. I plan on swapping to an MT trans soon.