To understeer or not to Understeer....

[kbeefy]

So, I have a '92 Legacy Sedan (AWD, MT).

Got myself some Blizzak WS60's yesterday.
The car understeer's pretty bad, and I'm an oversteering kind of fella.
I ordered a Whiteline adjustable rear swaybar and ALK to try and combat the understeering, but they won't be here for a bit.
Today I experimented with increasing front traction by disconecting the front swaybar (acomplishing basically what I had intended with the stiffer rear swaybar).
After driving it around the car is VERY Neutral, and much more predictable than w/ the swaybar connected, but I still can't call it oversteering. I still have to lift or trail-brake in a corner to get the rear to break first.

I was wondering if anyone on here has any experience with the ALK's, and if so how much do they affect understeer/oversteer? Am I gonna need to find more parts to get this thing to get predictably tail-happy?

[jamal]

a subaru, or any other car with four equal sized tires, a front biased weight distribution, and 50:50 AWD will not ever really be oversteer prone unless you make serious compromises to get there.

A rear swaybar, and alk, and a good alignment will do a lot to help, but there will generally always be a tendency to push in steady state cornering. The trick is to upset the car to get the back to come around.

[evolutionmovement]

Nearly all road cars, even exotics, are ultimately understeerers by design for safety purposes as most people can't drive for shit and in panic situations, understeering is more likely to be the safer, predictable handling failure. Catch a sudden obstacle mid-way through fast corner and the natural reaction of most people to lift or brake will slow them for the accident they may inevitably have and allow the use of the safest engineered part of the car (the front), reducing the chance of injury and maybe allowing the driver to even regain control as the slower speed and weight shift increases the traction on the front. The oversteering car might send you through the guard rail backwards if either of those things were done.

Left-foot braking would bring the wagon around pretty well. I also don't like real high-grip tires on it as they don't allow the rear to come out very well while the cheaper tires let the car do a balanced 4-wheel drift. That and cheap tires are easier on the wallet as I've never had any set make it to 2 years (and those were the 4x more expensive tires on my Mazda3).

[kbeefy]

I'm well aware of the reasoning for a factory designed understeering car, it's for people that can't drive. I'd much rather the rear breaks free at the limit of traction, especialy in an AWD car where some throttle will help correct, instead of loosing steering input and having to slow down to turn or avoid whatever obstacle happens to need avoiding.
My racecar is a mustang and I've been driving alaska winters for over 20 years now in RWD vehicles, I didn't need the lecture, I'm just looking for someone with more experience modifying these than me.
Thanks Jamal, I guess I'll just see how it works with the new parts.

Also, as far as cheap tires... they're the bit that ultimately makes your car go where you want it to. Arguably the most important part, especially for the performance minded. A good tire makes a HUGE difference in how a car performs, to bad they wear out so quickly.

[evolutionmovement]

It wasn't a lecture, just an explanation. Don't be so sensitive.

[kbeefy]

OK.

[entirelyturbo]

We're all a good bunch of people around here, kbeefy. Unlike the US government, we still practice habeas corpus, so we aren't going to lecture you or talk down to you unless you give us a good reason.

As jamal said, get a bigger rear swaybar. In fact, since yours is a 92, you might not have one at all. Put one on and it should be a night-and-day difference. jamal has also done a very good write-up on how to add a rear swaybar to a car that doesn't have one. I believe it's in the suspension sticky at the top of the page. If not, you should find it in a search.

[kbeefy]

I've been through Jamal's suspension post a few times, very informative and helpful stuff.

I have a turbo sedan, it already has a rear swaybar but I ordered the whiteline 20mm adjustable rear to try and up the oversteering a bit. As I mentioned, I also experimented with removing my front swaybar to see how that would help.

[entirelyturbo]

Don't forget the easiest, cheapest, and most overlooked suspension tuning there is... tire pressures.

When I last rallyXed my Legacy, my friend had me adjust my tire pressures to 39psi front/32 psi rear. Holy hell... under braking, my car oversteered like a sprint car. For most of the corners, I didn't even need the handbrake.

Have you seen the picture of my car in the rotation in the upper left corner? That was during that exact rallyX, and that drift was achieved merely by some very mild trailbraking.

[kbeefy]

wouldn't a 39/32 f/r split tend to produce understeer? Usually dropping pressure increases traction, IIRC. Maybe your just transposed some #'s? Or maybe I'm talking out of my butt and don't know anything.
Just loosing the front swaybar has made the car VERY neutral, lifting on the throttle will break the rear free, throttle at the limit breaks all four and starts an understeering 4 wheel drift. A quick stab on the brake entering a corner will produce pretty good rotation. I'll play with the pressures tommorow at work, see if that helps. I know it will, curious as to how much.

So, unrelated but I saw your in Orlando... me and the family are heading that way thursday night, 1 week in Orlando and 1 week wandering aound the rest of S. Florida.


Also... in an unabashed display of oversteering and tire waste, a little footage of my other car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4NUQXa ... re=channel

[jamal]

well, going too far from ideal pressure is going to reduce grip either way. I think you're much better off keeping all four tires in their happy place and then adjusting balance with the swaybars, and alignment. Having that bigger rear bar is really going to help you out.

Unfortunately the only power-on oversteer you'll see is with lots and lots of wheelspin, and even then these cars want to straighten themselves out rather quickly.

[Legacy777]

As Jamal and others have said, getting the larger rear bar makes a night and day difference. I can't emphasize that enough.

Additionally removing the front sway bar is not overly desired as it removes grip from the front of the car. See how things are with the larger rear bar. I think you'll be happy.

[Soul Shinobi]

I'd like to give a +1 to the anti-lift kit suggestion (does any one know which ones fit? I think they're all the same). I haven't driven a car with the kit, but a friend just had them installed and he said it helps front traction a lot, reduced midcorner understeer, and made the steering more responsive. He says his '04 WRX (with Eibach springs) corners just about neutral, and he can make it oversteer with minor techniques, and his WRX is on stock swaybars.

[jamal]

they are all pretty much the same. the new legacys and 08 imprezas have different control arms so parts for them don't work. Anything for pre-08 imprezas fits though.

And yeah, I had one on the old car and put it on my new one. It's really a fantastic part, and doesn't just do one thing. It changes the geometry for the better, adds caster, and uses a stiffer bushing. The stiffer bushing makes a difference all the time. I feel it really quickened braking response and improved feel.