help making 215-230 hp

[legacy92turbo]

I have a 1992 legacy ss and id like to make about 215-230 hp. Can someone post what parts and supporting mods i will need? some questions id like answered are...

1-can i run that amount of hp on stock ecu?

2-will a TD04 turbo be enough?
with FMIC
turbo back exhaust (3 inch)
440cc injectors
walbro 255
new intake
boost control
some way of getting rid of fuel cut ( haven't read up on that yet)

please all input and criticism is needed and welcome

[kimokalihi]

FMIC is not necessary for a TD04. You'll only introduce a drop in throttle response. Just got with an 06-07 WRX TMIC. 440s will be sufficient with a TD04 but no larger than that. New intake isn't going to make any difference in my opinion. Unless it's more noise that you're after. Getting rid of fuel cut is good but only if you have an Air/Fuel ratio gauge and wideband O2 sensor to make sure you're safe and not running lean which WILL cause detonation AKA knock and blow up your engine. Also you'll need a boost gauge as well to make sure you're not making too much boost. Wallbro 255 is a good choice.

You will also need a JECS MAF that is capable of reading the extra airflow you'll be pushing. And then that leaves you with the ECU. Some people run 440s, JECS MAF and TD04 or VF39 on the stock ECU. I wouldn't. I don't think it can handle them properly but people do it so maybe. I would recommend a piggy back or better yet wait a little bit and get your ECU tuned by Rob on this forum. He's currently working on a way to tune our EJ22T ECUs and that will be your best/easiest/cheapest option. He's been working on it for a while and if you search the electrical forum you'll see a couple threads of his on it. I'm running his ECU in my car now and many others are as well in their imprezas. I have an impreza engine in my car so that's why I'm running his tune now.

As far as 215-230hp are you talking about WHP or BHP(CHP)? 160HP at the crank is the stock spec of the EJ22T engine so you're talking an increase of 34-43% in HP at the crank assuming you meant CHP. If you meant WHP that's considerably more. I don't think you'll see those types of gains from a TD04 which isn't all that much bigger than a VF11 (stock EJ22T turbo) and 440 vs 370(I think) injectors and adding 3" exhaust and intercooler and ECU tune. 215 might be possible by cranking the boost so long as your tune can handle the larger injectors and extra flow. Maybe others can chime in here I'm not all that experienced.

If it were me I would go for it but also add DOHC heads which flow a lot better and will help a lot in getting you to your power goals. Have fun!

[wtdash]

I'm making 180 @ the wheels w/EM (~220 crank - AT trans) w/440/TD04 and a Revtronix chip (no longer avl.). So, it will be tough (although it's been done) to get to 220 WHP w/out EM and bigger inj./turbo, IMHO.

GL,
Td

[legacy92turbo]

okay thanks, yeah i want 230 CHP if the stock EJ22T is 160 CHP. If i need engine management anyways to get that number i will save a bit more for a TD05, in that case would it be better to go with a FMIC/TD05 combo with 440's, DOHC heads, JECS MAF, walbro 255?. also with the TD05 would the 550 STI injectors be better? ill get the boost gauge and A/R gauge installed first, then exhaust, and the rest ill take my time and look for good deals, and wait on this rob tune thing. this sound good kimo?

[kimokalihi]

You don't want to run 440s with a TD05. Run at least 525 yellowtop sidefeed STI injectors. That's what I'm running now with TMIC. I want to go FMIC and plan to eventually but for now it works.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Don't worry about jumping into it fast, just save up and buy all the parts necessary first and remember it always costs more than you estimate in the beginning and something always comes up where you have to buy more parts.

[kimokalihi]

I'm making 180 @ the wheels w/EM (~220 crank - AT trans) w/440/TD04 and a Revtronix chip (no longer avl.). So, it will be tough (although it's been done) to get to 220 WHP w/out EM and bigger inj./turbo, IMHO.

GL,
Td

Is that number with the EJ22T heads or the EJ25D DOHC heads you mention in your signature?

[wtdash]

I'm making 180 @ the wheels w/EM (~220 crank - AT trans) w/440/TD04 and a Revtronix chip (no longer avl.). So, it will be tough (although it's been done) to get to 220 WHP w/out EM and bigger inj./turbo, IMHO.

GL,
Td

Is that number with the EJ22T heads or the EJ25D DOHC heads you mention in your signature?

Stock heads....FWIW, I'm putting in the 'rob tune' EJ20 ECU/550/VF39 in this weekend, hopefully. I plan on a Dyno day later this month to test.

Still debating on swapping in my EJ22T/EJ25DOHC project motor (w/the same mods). Probably depends on how well the stock heads do.

Td

[kimokalihi]

Might as well!

[legacy92turbo]

thanks kimo, ya i want to tackle all the rust this summer and paint, new sound system and tint windows etc... maybe do my turbo and intercooler in the fall and have everything ready. do i need the N/A rails for the sti injectors?

[kimokalihi]

Not sure. I know they'll fit NA rails but some people say they've managed to fit them in the EJ22T rails. I have EJ20G rails so I had to buy a conversion kit to fit phase 2 injectors in my phase 1 rails but my rails are different than yours.

[legacy92turbo]

will sti top feed 550 injectors work or do they have to be side feed?

[kimokalihi]

They have to be side feed or they won't fit.

[legacy92turbo]

okay so side feed sti injectors, what is a wideband o2 sensor? and i looked at your build thread and i like that short throw shifter, whats the name of it, and what other parts outside of the kit are needed to make it work? and price thank you

[mike-tracy]

Check out ebay for widebands. You need more than the 02 sensor, you need the gauge as well. The AEM UEGO kit is under 200 and the Innovate LC-1 about that as well, those are the most common ones I see. The kits should come with a gauge, wiring and a special 02 sensor.

You NEED one to see how rich or lean you are running so you don't blow up the engine.

[Mattheww044]

a wideband 02 sensor will replace your stock 02 sensor (if you have full standalone engine management), or be added onto your secondary bung on your exhaust. The stock 02 sensor is narrowband, but the wideband is much more accurate and comes with a guage to let you know your "exact" air/fuel ratio. This is CRITICAL when messing with injectors and bigger turbos and all that fun stuff. Too rich just wastes gas from my understanding and too lean can blow your motor, so it's well worth the ~$200 to know what is going on with your ratio. I went with the Innovative LC-1. Fairly cheap, very commonly used. Never had any experience with any other brands

[Mattheww044]

BTW, I might be selling my revtronix cheap in the near future once I get enough money saved up for my standalone that I'm going to buy. My friend wants it, but if he backs out i will let you know

[legacy92turbo]

okay thanks guys, for gauges what do i need? i know boost and A/F, anything else ? how cheap is cheap matt? my car is stock, except 2.25 inch straight back exhaust no cat

[Mattheww044]

I'll most likely be selling the ECU, chip, power mode switch, 440cc Injectors (cleaned and flow tested by WitchHunter before installation) and JECS MAF For around 400. I think that is a fair price. I payed 300 for the chip (after they quit making them so they are very hard to find), 100 for the injectors, another 100 for the service, JECs are about 30-40, not sure how much ECUs go for but since I'll have a full standalone I'll throw that in. An extra ECU is never a bad thing to have.

Only gauges I have are Wideband and boost/vac. I'd reccommend a full 3" exhaust (mine has no cats or resonators but that is too loud for some of the guys)

The R/T chip is ALSO a fuel cut defender, so it is a great product, I just wish he woulda stuck around for support and further experiments/new products

[legacy92turbo]

R/t chip being revtronix? can you tell me how much a stand alone is? stand alone is where the tuner re maps everything right? and is wide band is a A/f gauge right?

[kimokalihi]

Wideband is a type of oxygen sensor. It can read the exact ratio of air to fuel ratio. 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel is the Stoichiometric Air-fuel Ratio at sea level I believe. This means the ratio of air to fuel that allows all the air and all the fuel to be burnt in the combustion cycle. It's the most efficient ratio generally at sea level and probably depends on temperature as well but it's a general idea.

A narrowband oxygen sensor (just referred to at the parts store as an O2 sensor) can only tell the ECU if it's running rich or lean.

A/F gauge is the gauge that shows you what the air/fuel ratio is. It measures from 8:1-18:1 on my gauge. There's a good deal of wiring involved with that gauge and wideband sensor and the boost gauge so you need to be comfortable with soldering and shrink tubing and wire loom to protect the wires.

Stand alone engine management is expensive. It varries from brand to brand and usually because of quality, ease of use, popularity and range of tuning features. But the last one I looked at was about $1,600.

[evolutionmovement]

And there's the cost to have someone tune it.

I think you're really biting off more than you can chew with these goals and your knowledge level, which is the thing I think you should build first—learning is cheaper before you start buying parts. There's a lot of information in this site and from people here, but it's tough to sort through it all (I'll admit to being one to put in a lot of the asides and off topic shifts) or get all the answers you'll need, especially when probably no two people have the same exact set up. I'd suggest books on tuning if only to get what it entails (experience can't be read). If you have the money to throw away on learning the more expensive way of just jumping in blind, then you're luckier than me I guess (but even the cheaper way will still cost you in mistakes—they'll just be a lot cheaper), but if not, I really liked the book Engines: An Introduction by John Lumley. Don't let the name fool you—it's not a basic introduction, but it doesn't get into things that probably won't be relevant either. Anyway, that's my 2 quadrans' worth of advice.

[kimokalihi]

Steve I'm going to have to read that book since I've seen you plug it at least 3 times in the past week lol. Is it hard to understand? The problem I have with a lot of those types of books is they assume you know too much and you feel stupid and lost when you try to read it if you don't have their assumed level of basic knowledge on the subject. I once tried reading a basic introduction to building custom home audio setups and was so lost I couldn't hold interest enough to read much of it. And car audio was my main hobby for a 2 or 3 years!

But Steve is right, you should spend a good deal of time learning from wherever you can. Soak it all up. The more you learn the less money you'll waste and the more intelligent conversations you'll get to have. I suggest also reading the book Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. Very good book that I let my friend borrow and haven't gotten it back probably over a year ago. It will learn you in every aspect of designing your own turbo system and how it all works.

[legacy92turbo]

your exactly right about my knowledge level, im 18 and just getting into this stuff theres no doubt that mistakes will be made. everyday i read up on stuff here to find out as much as i can before taking this on, and it wont be alone, i figure its a lot about who you know. so if you guys can point me in the right direction it all helps, ill focus on the body work and suspension and my interior until i feel im prepared, thanks guys

[evolutionmovement]

Ah, Maximum Boost! Couldn't think of the name of that one. But, no, "Engines..." is easy to understand, which is great. It's not a dumbed down introduction and it covers forced induction and different variable valve timing systems and such. I think it's also where I read about pulse tuning (so when someone brings up the persistent back pressure myth, you'll know the truth). I think it's more geared towards engineering, so the introduction is in that it explains how things work, but doesn't get into all the math engineering would require. For anyone interested in engines, I think it's not only educational, but interesting. The only real assumption I think that it makes is that you at least know the "suck, squeeze, bang, blow", but even if someone didn't, that's easy enough to learn with howstuffworks.com or something. Man, I love the internet. Took me years to figure out how engines worked on my own when I was a kid, but now that information is clear, concise, with nice animations, and can be had in seconds. Of course, the more intensive stuff isn't as easy, especially when you have to sift through a lot of BS and persistent myths, but at least its easy to find.

I'd start with suspension as well. It's much more difficult to cause expensive problems and not as likely to get you into trouble as a lot of power is and it's cheaper both to get into and in maintenance. Also, i imagine this is your daily driver, and most anything suspension is more straight forward and can be done without leaving you stranded when you find you need a different/new widget/that damn thing doesn't fit/broke something by mistake and you now need to wait for a replacement. And there are so many options and compromises that must be made so you can keep tweaking things and learning. It's also a good way to brush up on driving skill. There's a lot of satisfaction to be had from outdriving people in performance cars with something that's not very fast.

[legacy92turbo]

yeah it is a daily driver, ill take your advice go with suspension first, read up on how to tune, and turbo engines in general.
still destroying civics stock anyways haha