93 turbo wagon no spark, no fuel, bad ecu?

[imaiami]

howdy,
I'm pretty new to the car and love her. Had some issues right when I got her with no start and such, but solved that with a tune, boost leaks, and a coolant temp sensor.

so randomly I drive to a buddys house, the car is sitting idling, and then kaput. nada.
no more restart.

fuel pump primes and works, but plugs are bone dry.
also checked for spark and no spark with the plugs grounded.
No cels showing from ecu.
I've checked all the fuses, fulable link, and relays including the main relay with no luck.
also thought about the crank or cam sensors but read they would throw a cel.
timing belt is in tact, engine is spinning with compression.

I'm boggled about now.
could this be a potential bad ecu?

thanks,
dustin

[imaiami]

I was finally able to get her to show some codes, but not just one.
got 13, 14, 21, 22, 32, 45, 49
all those come from the same connector of the ecu.
http://www.surrealmirage.com/vrg3/ecupins/
there's power on all the power in connections and grounds for the grounding points of the clip.
which really leads me to believe it could be a faulty ecu....

any other suggestions as to what to look for prior to me finding a ecu?

thanks,
dustin

[Legacy777]

Hi Dustin,

I'd suggest resetting the ECU, and then see what codes come back.

Any chance there is an alarm on the car? Have you hooked up a gauge to verify you have fuel pressure?

If you have good pressure then I would check the fuses/relays and also check to ensure you have power at the injectors. If that is good, then I might suggest checking the timing to make sure the belt didn't jump a tooth. If all those things check out ok, then I'd try and find a different ECU. They usually don't go bad, so it's probably something else.

[vrg3]

When you put the ECU in test mode, do all the solenoids start clicking?

[imaiami]

Any chance there is an alarm on the car? Have you hooked up a gauge to verify you have fuel pressure?

no alarm in the car.
haven't hooked up a gauge, just made sure the pump was working.

If you have good pressure then I would check the fuses/relays and also check to ensure you have power at the injectors. If that is good, then I might suggest checking the timing to make sure the belt didn't jump a tooth. If all those things check out ok, then I'd try and find a different ECU. They usually don't go bad, so it's probably something else

.

I've checked 20x over all the fuses and relays that have any remoteness of effectiveness.
I disconnected the ecu today for a few hours, put her, but couldn't start her for the 10 min it says to do and got the same codes.
the only obd1 resetting reference I could find was
http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/eng ... l#resetecu

For timing, even if she jumped, thered be a reference for crank/ cam to trigger spark and fuel, which I'm not getting at all.

I'll check power @ injectors, which I haven't done yet. but even if so, they're sure not getting the firing trigger.

When you put the ECU in test mode, do all the solenoids start clicking?

yup, not sure about all solenoids, but ticking from or around the map/ boost control solenoid area.


Thanks for the ideas. Very much appreciated. Keep em comin, I need this darnded car to drive.

Anyone got an ecu to try/ buy?

[vrg3]

Hmm, weird.

Since you did get a trouble code 13 for the cam angle sensor, I'm thinking that's most likely to be the problem. Even though in theory the engine could be run without that signal, I don't believe the turbo ECU will try. So that would explain why there's neither fuel nor spark.

I seem to recall one or two ECUs being for sale in the Parts Shed forum. I have a spare ECU I can sell you if that doesn't pan out though; just PM me. It's rare for them to go bad like this, though, so I'd first check out the camshaft position sensor.

If you can get the engine to run, then you can perform the code-clearing technique with the connectors, and see if any problems remain.

[imaiami]

so no real way to clear codes without running her eh?

I've got another crank sensor from a buddy's motor to throw in, so we'll try that n see. Otherwhise, I've got a few mails out to those holdin ecu's, we'll see if it pans out.

thanks for the help.

[vrg3]

Sometimes you can clear codes by disconnecting the ECU and shorting its power and ground pins (when it's not connected to anything!), but it's not reliable. The procedure with the connectors is the only reliable way without a scantool.

But if the ECU is working correctly, the only codes that could result in this kind of no-start condition with no fuel or spark are the camshaft or crankshaft position sensors anyway.

The cam and crank sensors are different -- code 13 is for the cam sensor. Make sure that's what you're swapping.

[imaiami]

swapped the cam sensor with no change. (not crank:D)
have power to the injectors, re verified fuel pump workage.

going to the coils though I don't have any constant 12v switched power. am I supposed to be reading this here?

also re verified power and ground to ecu, along with the sensor ground on that clip.....

sooo ECU eh?
care to let me borrow and I"ll pay postage if I can't find one in the near future, today?
thanks,
dustin

[vrg3]

Wait -- you should be reading +12v on the middle wire going to the coilpack when the ignition is on. I believe it's yellow.

If you're not, that would certainly prevent the spark plugs from firing. Power goes from the ignition switch through the EGI fuse in the under-dash fuse box out to the alternator voltage regulator and, through one of the harness connectors behind the battery, to the ignition coilpack.

If you're not getting power there, fix that. I don't see how that relates to not getting fuel, but it's a start.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I can lend you an ECU, unless you happen to be near northeast Ohio. I got screwed by a fellow board member a few years ago and I'm a little more self-protective than I used to be. I hope you understand.

[imaiami]

ahhh, thought I should be getting power there.
luckily had a buddy who has a ecu on the way tomorrow for me. woo hoo just crossing my fingers for the remedy.....
thanks for all the help, much appreciated.

[vrg3]

The ECU has nothing to do with supplying +12v to the ignition coil. Swapping the ECU won't fix the problem.

[imaiami]

ahhh, good point....

[vrg3]

Trace the wires!

Check for power at both sides of fuse 16 (though that should be good because the fuel pump primes), then check the yellow wire at the alternator harness, then check the 4 yellow wires at the lowest of the three big connectors behind the battery (2 feed the ignition coil and 2 feed the injectors).

Huh. It's starting to seem like maybe that big connector is your point of failure; the injectors and ignition both get fed power from there.

Did you check for power at the injector connectors? Their yellow wires should have +12v on them all the time (whereas the coilpack's yellow wire only has power when the ignition is on).

[imaiami]

welp, have power to coils, have power to injectors, have power to ecu, even got the new ecu but no change.
after cranking with the new ecu, the only code that threw was 13, cam sensor.
swapped that out and no change. then checked the power to the cam sensor, but there is none.
in this printout there looks like there should be some sort of power right?
http://www.surrealmirage.com/vrg3/ecupins/ pin B56.1, no power there though coming from the ecu.
yup, I have no idea

Thanks again for the help, as you can very well see I am in need

[vrg3]

That's not a power supply to the cam sensor. There's no power sent to the sensor. It's a variable reluctance sensor. When the pips on the cam pulley go past the sensor, the sensor generates a small signal. To reduce the effects of noise, Subaru ran two wires to the sensor to complete the circuit instead of just using the engine as a return path. That's why the sensor needs a positive and a negative wire; they're both signals.

So it's starting to look like the problem is in the wiring somewhere. Do you have a multimeter with an ohmmeter? If not, I would buy one; if you spend around $20 or $30 on it, it'll pay for itself pretty fast in helping you with diagnoses.

The ECU is mounted kind of above the driver's knees. Take off the trim panel and use a 10mm socket with an extension to undo the nuts holding it in place. Swing it out and unplug the connectors. Also unplug the cam sensor under the dash.

There's a chance that in doing this you'll find that one of them is loose; taking care of that would resolve your problem.

If not, though, measure the resistance between the ECU harness' "Cam angle sensor (+)" pin and the cam sensor harness' pin attached to a white wire. Do the same for the "Cam angle sensor (-)" pin and the black wire. They should both read close to zero -- say, a maximum of 0.2 ohms. Then also check to make sure that you read "infinite" resistance (really, at least 1 megaohm) between the two pins, and between either of the pins and ground.

If any of those doesn't check out, you're going to need to do a little rewiring.

Another possibility is that there's some kind of damage to the driver side camshaft sprocket. It seems unlikely, though, since the car was running okay just before this happened.

[imaiami]

ahhh, and I forgot to mention after tinkering with swapping cam sensor and what not, all the other codes came back that were there before along with the 13 for cam sensor.......

yup, been multimetering the bejeezels out of everything. I didn't really think a vr sensor had power, but when it said + that was my natural assumption.

greeat idea checking the continuity of the wires. will give her a whirl and hopefully find a culprit sooner than later.

Thanks again.
dustin

[imaiami]

checked continuity with 100% goodness so on to the cam gear and cam sensor pickup to see what the problem could be. go to crank with the timing cover off and the cam gear doesn't even spin with the crank pulley....
looks like timing belt went, which is odd because of having compression on one side when doing the test right when it stopped running. and also, the belt is tight still.......

although, it's a smack in the face for not minding the basics, testing all cylinders, and jumping to conclusions. I guess it didin't even occur to me since the accessories spun every time it cranked.

so off to tear her down with a new belt to throw on.

[vrg3]

Wow. I guess in a roundabout way, the code 13 diagnosis was right.

Good work finding the problem. I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what's going on -- if the belt's tight and still has teeth, I don't see how it would fail to turn the cam sprocket. Hopefully it'll make sense as you're hanging the new belt. Perhaps it's tight in some parts and not others.

I'd replace the idlers and tensioner too, and consider the water pump and cam and crank seals while you're in there.

And count your blessings. When my 99 Impreza lost timing a month ago, I had to buy a new engine. Non-interference engines for the win.

[imaiami]

so the belt's teeth were sheared off at the crank gear fully tensioned to the cam pulleys.
craziness, all old and cracked nonetheless.
got it all tidies and put back together. I found the timing markings and what not from the repair manual.....buttt after not starting and getting dark I got back to the computer and saw I had to use the other timing mark 90deg off on the crank gear while lining up the little notches of the cam gears to the covers notches. or line the arrows of the cam gears faces with the windows in the rear cover while keeping the crank at tdc with the frontal arrow mark.....darrrr, guess again we say thank goodness for noninterference singlecam

[vrg3]

Yeah, it's a little confusing that there are multiple sets of markings on the sprockets. You'll get it running really quickly once the sun comes up though. And, yes, thank the gods for the noninterference design!

[imaiami]

horray for correct timing

so just a note to the onlookers with the self leveling susp in the rear, although no accessory belts are on the motor, the fluids still pump from the rear and wow, without the radiator in there with the two hoses connected to the end tank, it shoots like a bat outa hell......my buddy wasn't too happy when the car started and he was standing right there


thanks again for all the help vrg3.......

[vrg3]

Huh, I thought the self-leveling suspension was pneumatic, not hydraulic. You sure that wasn't just automatic transmission fluid?

But anyway, happy to help, even though I didn't really do anything. Good job fixing it.

[imaiami]

ahhhh, trans fluid lol.....shot 5 feet high