Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One heads to something less costly than insane.
We still really need to know the objectives because they make a diff in what to do and what to spend.
I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for starters, but would require some other changes too.
However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going to be very similar about what to do...for the street.
My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of port contour for optimum flow.
The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no biggie, but the experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping the ports is valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can be done to the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be removed and combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head porting will provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire engine operating range.
The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes the same horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market Subaru engines, but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and whatnot. Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and stay there all the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of area under the power curve.
Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% - 25%
Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more gain
Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and friction, while at the same time increasing size, will enable even better volumetric efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher rpm's for an increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just do a competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy valvetrain components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly dependent on how exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with lifters, springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there with the fairly expensive headwork
Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of 5% to 10%
Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10% increase? Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass, friction, and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But usually somebody spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to take advantage of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much greater than the 10%.
Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to provide more torque down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at lower engine speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or sometimes even, a little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the cams, are kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size of the valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well spent performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower valvetrain mass. So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also lifting the valve higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate (acceleration and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater volumetric efficiency.
Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a valvetrain mod, because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same amount of power increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where desired on the rpm band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often limited by the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to get the bang out of a valvetrain mod only.
Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you shop -
$500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks off the shelf.
Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with a top of the line valvetrain
So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or drop somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you shop, and pick up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive) increase in peak power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without increasing compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does not choke off your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it downstream. Once you get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how fast do you want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to spend? For me, aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to temperature associated problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting the cylinder head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low end torque even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits, most everybody has one. What's your limit Bill?
Larry Witherspoon
4260 W 182nd St.
Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
day/office phone 562-982-7720
larry.d.witherspoon@boeing.com
ssspoon@aol.com
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best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
Moderators: Helpinators, Moderators
-
milehial2000
best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt engine?
also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's valve
mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One heads
to
> something less costly than insane.
> We still really need to know the objectives because they make a diff
in what
> to do and what to spend.
> I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
starters, but
> would require some other changes too.
> However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going to
be very
> similar about what to do...for the street.
>
> My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
>
> The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of port
contour for
> optimum flow.
>
> The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no biggie,
but the
> experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping the
ports is
> valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can be
done to
> the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
removed and
> combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head porting
will
> provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire engine
> operating range.
>
> The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes the
same
> horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market Subaru
engines,
> but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
whatnot.
> Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and stay
there all
> the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of area
under
> the power curve.
> Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% - 25%
> Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more gain
>
> Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
friction, while
> at the same time increasing size, will enable even better volumetric
> efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher rpm's
for an
> increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just do a
> competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy valvetrain
> components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
>
> Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly dependent
on how
> exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
lifters,
> springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there with
the
> fairly expensive headwork
> Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of 5%
to 10%
>
> Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
increase?
> Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
friction,
> and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But usually
somebody
> spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to take
advantage
> of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much greater
than the
> 10%.
>
> Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to provide
more torque
> down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at lower
engine
> speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or sometimes
even, a
> little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
cams, are
> kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size of
the
> valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
spent
> performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
valvetrain mass.
> So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also lifting
the valve
> higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
(acceleration
> and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
volumetric
> efficiency.
>
> Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
valvetrain mod,
> because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same amount of
power
> increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where desired on
the rpm
> band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
limited by
> the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to get
the bang
> out of a valvetrain mod only.
>
> Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you shop
-
> $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks off
the shelf.
>
> Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with a
top of the
> line valvetrain
>
> So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or drop
> somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you shop,
and pick
> up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive) increase
in peak
> power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without increasing
> compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does not
choke off
> your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it downstream.
Once you
> get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how fast
do you
> want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to spend?
For me,
> aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to temperature
associated
> problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting the
cylinder
> head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low end
torque
> even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits, most
everybody
> has one. What's your limit Bill?
>
>
> Larry Witherspoon
> 4260 W 182nd St.
> Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> day/office phone 562-982-7720
> larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> ssspoon@a...
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also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's valve
mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One heads
to
> something less costly than insane.
> We still really need to know the objectives because they make a diff
in what
> to do and what to spend.
> I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
starters, but
> would require some other changes too.
> However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going to
be very
> similar about what to do...for the street.
>
> My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
>
> The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of port
contour for
> optimum flow.
>
> The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no biggie,
but the
> experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping the
ports is
> valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can be
done to
> the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
removed and
> combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head porting
will
> provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire engine
> operating range.
>
> The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes the
same
> horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market Subaru
engines,
> but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
whatnot.
> Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and stay
there all
> the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of area
under
> the power curve.
> Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% - 25%
> Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more gain
>
> Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
friction, while
> at the same time increasing size, will enable even better volumetric
> efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher rpm's
for an
> increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just do a
> competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy valvetrain
> components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
>
> Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly dependent
on how
> exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
lifters,
> springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there with
the
> fairly expensive headwork
> Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of 5%
to 10%
>
> Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
increase?
> Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
friction,
> and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But usually
somebody
> spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to take
advantage
> of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much greater
than the
> 10%.
>
> Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to provide
more torque
> down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at lower
engine
> speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or sometimes
even, a
> little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
cams, are
> kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size of
the
> valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
spent
> performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
valvetrain mass.
> So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also lifting
the valve
> higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
(acceleration
> and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
volumetric
> efficiency.
>
> Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
valvetrain mod,
> because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same amount of
power
> increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where desired on
the rpm
> band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
limited by
> the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to get
the bang
> out of a valvetrain mod only.
>
> Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you shop
-
> $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks off
the shelf.
>
> Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with a
top of the
> line valvetrain
>
> So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or drop
> somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you shop,
and pick
> up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive) increase
in peak
> power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without increasing
> compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does not
choke off
> your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it downstream.
Once you
> get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how fast
do you
> want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to spend?
For me,
> aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to temperature
associated
> problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting the
cylinder
> head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low end
torque
> even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits, most
everybody
> has one. What's your limit Bill?
>
>
> Larry Witherspoon
> 4260 W 182nd St.
> Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> day/office phone 562-982-7720
> larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> ssspoon@a...
------------------------ ---------------------~-->
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---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
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-
John Gillon
best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
For the 205kW manual trans version...
- solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
- rev limit is 7500rpm
- from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are solid
lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not sure about
the US version
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@hypermall.net>
To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying existing
heads
> Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt engine?
> also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's valve
> mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One heads
> to
> > something less costly than insane.
> > We still really need to know the objectives because they make a diff
> in what
> > to do and what to spend.
> > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> starters, but
> > would require some other changes too.
> > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going to
> be very
> > similar about what to do...for the street.
> >
> > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
> >
> > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of port
> contour for
> > optimum flow.
> >
> > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no biggie,
> but the
> > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping the
> ports is
> > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can be
> done to
> > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
> removed and
> > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head porting
> will
> > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire engine
> > operating range.
> >
> > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes the
> same
> > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market Subaru
> engines,
> > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
> whatnot.
> > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and stay
> there all
> > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of area
> under
> > the power curve.
> > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% - 25%
> > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more gain
>
> >
> > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
> friction, while
> > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better volumetric
> > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher rpm's
> for an
> > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just do a
> > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy valvetrain
> > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> >
> > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly dependent
> on how
> > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
> lifters,
> > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there with
> the
> > fairly expensive headwork
> > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of 5%
> to 10%
> >
> > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> increase?
> > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
> friction,
> > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But usually
> somebody
> > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to take
> advantage
> > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much greater
> than the
> > 10%.
> >
> > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to provide
> more torque
> > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at lower
> engine
> > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or sometimes
> even, a
> > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
> cams, are
> > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size of
> the
> > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
> spent
> > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> valvetrain mass.
> > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also lifting
> the valve
> > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
> (acceleration
> > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> volumetric
> > efficiency.
> >
> > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> valvetrain mod,
> > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same amount of
> power
> > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where desired on
> the rpm
> > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
> limited by
> > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to get
> the bang
> > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> >
> > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you shop
> -
> > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks off
> the shelf.
> >
> > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with a
> top of the
> > line valvetrain
> >
> > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or drop
> > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you shop,
> and pick
> > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive) increase
> in peak
> > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without increasing
> > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does not
> choke off
> > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it downstream.
> Once you
> > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how fast
> do you
> > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to spend?
> For me,
> > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to temperature
> associated
> > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting the
> cylinder
> > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low end
> torque
> > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits, most
> everybody
> > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> >
> >
> > Larry Witherspoon
> > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > ssspoon@a...
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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- solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
- rev limit is 7500rpm
- from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are solid
lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not sure about
the US version
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@hypermall.net>
To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying existing
heads
> Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt engine?
> also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's valve
> mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One heads
> to
> > something less costly than insane.
> > We still really need to know the objectives because they make a diff
> in what
> > to do and what to spend.
> > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> starters, but
> > would require some other changes too.
> > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going to
> be very
> > similar about what to do...for the street.
> >
> > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
> >
> > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of port
> contour for
> > optimum flow.
> >
> > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no biggie,
> but the
> > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping the
> ports is
> > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can be
> done to
> > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
> removed and
> > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head porting
> will
> > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire engine
> > operating range.
> >
> > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes the
> same
> > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market Subaru
> engines,
> > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
> whatnot.
> > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and stay
> there all
> > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of area
> under
> > the power curve.
> > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% - 25%
> > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more gain
>
> >
> > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
> friction, while
> > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better volumetric
> > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher rpm's
> for an
> > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just do a
> > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy valvetrain
> > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> >
> > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly dependent
> on how
> > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
> lifters,
> > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there with
> the
> > fairly expensive headwork
> > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of 5%
> to 10%
> >
> > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> increase?
> > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
> friction,
> > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But usually
> somebody
> > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to take
> advantage
> > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much greater
> than the
> > 10%.
> >
> > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to provide
> more torque
> > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at lower
> engine
> > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or sometimes
> even, a
> > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
> cams, are
> > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size of
> the
> > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
> spent
> > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> valvetrain mass.
> > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also lifting
> the valve
> > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
> (acceleration
> > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> volumetric
> > efficiency.
> >
> > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> valvetrain mod,
> > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same amount of
> power
> > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where desired on
> the rpm
> > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
> limited by
> > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to get
> the bang
> > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> >
> > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you shop
> -
> > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks off
> the shelf.
> >
> > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with a
> top of the
> > line valvetrain
> >
> > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or drop
> > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you shop,
> and pick
> > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive) increase
> in peak
> > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without increasing
> > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does not
> choke off
> > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it downstream.
> Once you
> > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how fast
> do you
> > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to spend?
> For me,
> > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to temperature
> associated
> > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting the
> cylinder
> > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low end
> torque
> > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits, most
> everybody
> > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> >
> >
> > Larry Witherspoon
> > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > ssspoon@a...
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-
milehial2000
best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I would like
to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the US
Spec WRX heads will work.
AL(CO)
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> For the 205kW manual trans version...
> - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> - rev limit is 7500rpm
> - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
solid
> lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not sure
about
> the US version
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
existing
> heads
>
>
> > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
engine?
> > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
valve
> > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One
heads
> > to
> > > something less costly than insane.
> > > We still really need to know the objectives because they make a
diff
> > in what
> > > to do and what to spend.
> > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > starters, but
> > > would require some other changes too.
> > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going
to
> > be very
> > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > >
> > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
> > >
> > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
port
> > contour for
> > > optimum flow.
> > >
> > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
biggie,
> > but the
> > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping
the
> > ports is
> > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can
be
> > done to
> > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
> > removed and
> > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
porting
> > will
> > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire
engine
> > > operating range.
> > >
> > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes
the
> > same
> > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
Subaru
> > engines,
> > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
> > whatnot.
> > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and
stay
> > there all
> > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of
area
> > under
> > > the power curve.
> > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% -
25%
> > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more
gain
> >
> > >
> > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
> > friction, while
> > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
volumetric
> > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
rpm's
> > for an
> > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just
do a
> > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
valvetrain
> > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > >
> > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
dependent
> > on how
> > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
> > lifters,
> > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there
with
> > the
> > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of
5%
> > to 10%
> > >
> > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > increase?
> > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
> > friction,
> > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
usually
> > somebody
> > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
take
> > advantage
> > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
greater
> > than the
> > > 10%.
> > >
> > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
provide
> > more torque
> > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
lower
> > engine
> > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
sometimes
> > even, a
> > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
> > cams, are
> > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size
of
> > the
> > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
> > spent
> > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > valvetrain mass.
> > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
lifting
> > the valve
> > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
> > (acceleration
> > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > volumetric
> > > efficiency.
> > >
> > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > valvetrain mod,
> > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
amount of
> > power
> > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
desired on
> > the rpm
> > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
> > limited by
> > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to
get
> > the bang
> > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > >
> > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you
shop
> > -
> > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks
off
> > the shelf.
> > >
> > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with
a
> > top of the
> > > line valvetrain
> > >
> > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or
drop
> > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you
shop,
> > and pick
> > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
increase
> > in peak
> > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
increasing
> > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does
not
> > choke off
> > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
downstream.
> > Once you
> > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how
fast
> > do you
> > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
spend?
> > For me,
> > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
temperature
> > associated
> > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting
the
> > cylinder
> > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low
end
> > torque
> > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
most
> > everybody
> > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > >
> > >
> > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > ssspoon@a...
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
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to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the US
Spec WRX heads will work.
AL(CO)
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> For the 205kW manual trans version...
> - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> - rev limit is 7500rpm
> - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
solid
> lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not sure
about
> the US version
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
existing
> heads
>
>
> > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
engine?
> > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
valve
> > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One
heads
> > to
> > > something less costly than insane.
> > > We still really need to know the objectives because they make a
diff
> > in what
> > > to do and what to spend.
> > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > starters, but
> > > would require some other changes too.
> > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going
to
> > be very
> > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > >
> > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
> > >
> > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
port
> > contour for
> > > optimum flow.
> > >
> > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
biggie,
> > but the
> > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping
the
> > ports is
> > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can
be
> > done to
> > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
> > removed and
> > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
porting
> > will
> > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire
engine
> > > operating range.
> > >
> > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes
the
> > same
> > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
Subaru
> > engines,
> > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
> > whatnot.
> > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and
stay
> > there all
> > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of
area
> > under
> > > the power curve.
> > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% -
25%
> > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more
gain
> >
> > >
> > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
> > friction, while
> > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
volumetric
> > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
rpm's
> > for an
> > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just
do a
> > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
valvetrain
> > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > >
> > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
dependent
> > on how
> > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
> > lifters,
> > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there
with
> > the
> > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of
5%
> > to 10%
> > >
> > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > increase?
> > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
> > friction,
> > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
usually
> > somebody
> > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
take
> > advantage
> > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
greater
> > than the
> > > 10%.
> > >
> > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
provide
> > more torque
> > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
lower
> > engine
> > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
sometimes
> > even, a
> > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
> > cams, are
> > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size
of
> > the
> > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
> > spent
> > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > valvetrain mass.
> > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
lifting
> > the valve
> > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
> > (acceleration
> > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > volumetric
> > > efficiency.
> > >
> > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > valvetrain mod,
> > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
amount of
> > power
> > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
desired on
> > the rpm
> > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
> > limited by
> > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to
get
> > the bang
> > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > >
> > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you
shop
> > -
> > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks
off
> > the shelf.
> > >
> > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with
a
> > top of the
> > > line valvetrain
> > >
> > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or
drop
> > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you
shop,
> > and pick
> > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
increase
> > in peak
> > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
increasing
> > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does
not
> > choke off
> > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
downstream.
> > Once you
> > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how
fast
> > do you
> > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
spend?
> > For me,
> > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
temperature
> > associated
> > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting
the
> > cylinder
> > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low
end
> > torque
> > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
most
> > everybody
> > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > >
> > >
> > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > ssspoon@a...
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
------------------------ ---------------------~-->
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-
John Gillon
best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
No, the twin turbo introduced in late 93 also introduced open deck blocks.
This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact dates and
models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most definitely closed
deck.
It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo / WRX heads
to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they are a
"bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the EJ22T.
John Gillon
----- Original Message -----
From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@hypermall.net>
To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying existing
heads
> I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I would like
> to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the US
> Spec WRX heads will work.
> AL(CO)
>
>
>
> --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
> solid
> > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not sure
> about
> > the US version
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
> existing
> > heads
> >
> >
> > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
> engine?
> > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
> valve
> > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One
> heads
> > > to
> > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they make a
> diff
> > > in what
> > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > > starters, but
> > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going
> to
> > > be very
> > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > >
> > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
> > > >
> > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
> port
> > > contour for
> > > > optimum flow.
> > > >
> > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
> biggie,
> > > but the
> > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping
> the
> > > ports is
> > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can
> be
> > > done to
> > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
> > > removed and
> > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
> porting
> > > will
> > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire
> engine
> > > > operating range.
> > > >
> > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes
> the
> > > same
> > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
> Subaru
> > > engines,
> > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
> > > whatnot.
> > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and
> stay
> > > there all
> > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of
> area
> > > under
> > > > the power curve.
> > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% -
> 25%
> > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more
> gain
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
> > > friction, while
> > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
> volumetric
> > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
> rpm's
> > > for an
> > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just
> do a
> > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> valvetrain
> > > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > > >
> > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
> dependent
> > > on how
> > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
> > > lifters,
> > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there
> with
> > > the
> > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of
> 5%
> > > to 10%
> > > >
> > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > > increase?
> > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
> > > friction,
> > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
> usually
> > > somebody
> > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
> take
> > > advantage
> > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
> greater
> > > than the
> > > > 10%.
> > > >
> > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
> provide
> > > more torque
> > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
> lower
> > > engine
> > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
> sometimes
> > > even, a
> > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
> > > cams, are
> > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size
> of
> > > the
> > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
> > > spent
> > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
> lifting
> > > the valve
> > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
> > > (acceleration
> > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > > volumetric
> > > > efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
> amount of
> > > power
> > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
> desired on
> > > the rpm
> > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
> > > limited by
> > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to
> get
> > > the bang
> > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > >
> > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you
> shop
> > > -
> > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks
> off
> > > the shelf.
> > > >
> > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with
> a
> > > top of the
> > > > line valvetrain
> > > >
> > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or
> drop
> > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you
> shop,
> > > and pick
> > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
> increase
> > > in peak
> > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> increasing
> > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does
> not
> > > choke off
> > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> downstream.
> > > Once you
> > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how
> fast
> > > do you
> > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
> spend?
> > > For me,
> > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> temperature
> > > associated
> > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting
> the
> > > cylinder
> > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low
> end
> > > torque
> > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
> most
> > > everybody
> > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > ssspoon@a...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact dates and
models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most definitely closed
deck.
It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo / WRX heads
to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they are a
"bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the EJ22T.
John Gillon
----- Original Message -----
From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@hypermall.net>
To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying existing
heads
> I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I would like
> to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the US
> Spec WRX heads will work.
> AL(CO)
>
>
>
> --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
> solid
> > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not sure
> about
> > the US version
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
> existing
> > heads
> >
> >
> > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
> engine?
> > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
> valve
> > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula One
> heads
> > > to
> > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they make a
> diff
> > > in what
> > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > > starters, but
> > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are going
> to
> > > be very
> > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > >
> > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting job.
> > > >
> > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
> port
> > > contour for
> > > > optimum flow.
> > > >
> > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
> biggie,
> > > but the
> > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in reshaping
> the
> > > ports is
> > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that can
> be
> > > done to
> > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can be
> > > removed and
> > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
> porting
> > > will
> > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the entire
> engine
> > > > operating range.
> > > >
> > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It makes
> the
> > > same
> > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
> Subaru
> > > engines,
> > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches and
> > > whatnot.
> > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm and
> stay
> > > there all
> > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT of
> area
> > > under
> > > > the power curve.
> > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15% -
> 25%
> > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67% more
> gain
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass and
> > > friction, while
> > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
> volumetric
> > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
> rpm's
> > > for an
> > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also just
> do a
> > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> valvetrain
> > > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > > >
> > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
> dependent
> > > on how
> > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing heads
> > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also with
> > > lifters,
> > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up there
> with
> > > the
> > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an increase of
> 5%
> > > to 10%
> > > >
> > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > > increase?
> > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower mass,
> > > friction,
> > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
> usually
> > > somebody
> > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
> take
> > > advantage
> > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
> greater
> > > than the
> > > > 10%.
> > > >
> > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
> provide
> > > more torque
> > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
> lower
> > > engine
> > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
> sometimes
> > > even, a
> > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and the
> > > cams, are
> > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the size
> of
> > > the
> > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too well
> > > spent
> > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
> lifting
> > > the valve
> > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp rate
> > > (acceleration
> > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > > volumetric
> > > > efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
> amount of
> > > power
> > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
> desired on
> > > the rpm
> > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads often
> > > limited by
> > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the bucks to
> get
> > > the bang
> > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > >
> > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where you
> shop
> > > -
> > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump sticks
> off
> > > the shelf.
> > > >
> > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20% with
> a
> > > top of the
> > > > line valvetrain
> > > >
> > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred, or
> drop
> > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where you
> shop,
> > > and pick
> > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
> increase
> > > in peak
> > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> increasing
> > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system does
> not
> > > choke off
> > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> downstream.
> > > Once you
> > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask how
> fast
> > > do you
> > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
> spend?
> > > For me,
> > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> temperature
> > > associated
> > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in getting
> the
> > > cylinder
> > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances low
> end
> > > torque
> > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
> most
> > > everybody
> > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > ssspoon@a...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------ ---------------------~-->
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---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
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-
milehial2000
best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
Thanks for the information John I thought the price on these heads was
a little to attractive. Now I need a little help or advice from
someone who knows more about valves and lifters than I do. The US WRX
will pull well past 8000 rpm and my EJ22t floats the valves at
about 7200 rpm. Is this due to the boost pressure partially holding
the valves open the weight of the valve train the need for stronger
springs the hydraulic lifters or all of the above. I have some roller
type mechanical-adjustable rocker arms but the design of them makes it
more than a bolt on install. I wonder if they would make a substantial
improvement.
AL(CO)
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> No, the twin turbo introduced in late 93 also introduced open deck
blocks.
> This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact dates
and
> models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most definitely
closed
> deck.
>
> It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo / WRX
heads
> to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they are a
> "bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the EJ22T.
>
> John Gillon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
> Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
existing
> heads
>
>
> > I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I would
like
> > to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the
US
> > Spec WRX heads will work.
> > AL(CO)
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
> > solid
> > > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not
sure
> > about
> > > the US version
> > >
> > > John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
modifying
> > existing
> > > heads
> > >
> > >
> > > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
> > engine?
> > > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
> > valve
> > > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula
One
> > heads
> > > > to
> > > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they
make a
> > diff
> > > > in what
> > > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > > > starters, but
> > > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are
going
> > to
> > > > be very
> > > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > > >
> > > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting
job.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
> > port
> > > > contour for
> > > > > optimum flow.
> > > > >
> > > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
> > biggie,
> > > > but the
> > > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in
reshaping
> > the
> > > > ports is
> > > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that
can
> > be
> > > > done to
> > > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can
be
> > > > removed and
> > > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
> > porting
> > > > will
> > > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the
entire
> > engine
> > > > > operating range.
> > > > >
> > > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It
makes
> > the
> > > > same
> > > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
> > Subaru
> > > > engines,
> > > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches
and
> > > > whatnot.
> > > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm
and
> > stay
> > > > there all
> > > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT
of
> > area
> > > > under
> > > > > the power curve.
> > > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15%
-
> > 25%
> > > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67%
more
> > gain
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass
and
> > > > friction, while
> > > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
> > volumetric
> > > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
> > rpm's
> > > > for an
> > > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also
just
> > do a
> > > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> > valvetrain
> > > > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
> > dependent
> > > > on how
> > > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing
heads
> > > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also
with
> > > > lifters,
> > > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up
there
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an
increase of
> > 5%
> > > > to 10%
> > > > >
> > > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > > > increase?
> > > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower
mass,
> > > > friction,
> > > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
> > usually
> > > > somebody
> > > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
> > take
> > > > advantage
> > > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
> > greater
> > > > than the
> > > > > 10%.
> > > > >
> > > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
> > provide
> > > > more torque
> > > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
> > lower
> > > > engine
> > > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
> > sometimes
> > > > even, a
> > > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and
the
> > > > cams, are
> > > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the
size
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too
well
> > > > spent
> > > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
> > lifting
> > > > the valve
> > > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp
rate
> > > > (acceleration
> > > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > > > volumetric
> > > > > efficiency.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
> > amount of
> > > > power
> > > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
> > desired on
> > > > the rpm
> > > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads
often
> > > > limited by
> > > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the
bucks to
> > get
> > > > the bang
> > > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where
you
> > shop
> > > > -
> > > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump
sticks
> > off
> > > > the shelf.
> > > > >
> > > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20%
with
> > a
> > > > top of the
> > > > > line valvetrain
> > > > >
> > > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred,
or
> > drop
> > > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where
you
> > shop,
> > > > and pick
> > > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
> > increase
> > > > in peak
> > > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> > increasing
> > > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system
does
> > not
> > > > choke off
> > > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> > downstream.
> > > > Once you
> > > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask
how
> > fast
> > > > do you
> > > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
> > spend?
> > > > For me,
> > > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> > temperature
> > > > associated
> > > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in
getting
> > the
> > > > cylinder
> > > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances
low
> > end
> > > > torque
> > > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
> > most
> > > > everybody
> > > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > > ssspoon@a...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
a little to attractive. Now I need a little help or advice from
someone who knows more about valves and lifters than I do. The US WRX
will pull well past 8000 rpm and my EJ22t floats the valves at
about 7200 rpm. Is this due to the boost pressure partially holding
the valves open the weight of the valve train the need for stronger
springs the hydraulic lifters or all of the above. I have some roller
type mechanical-adjustable rocker arms but the design of them makes it
more than a bolt on install. I wonder if they would make a substantial
improvement.
AL(CO)
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> No, the twin turbo introduced in late 93 also introduced open deck
blocks.
> This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact dates
and
> models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most definitely
closed
> deck.
>
> It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo / WRX
heads
> to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they are a
> "bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the EJ22T.
>
> John Gillon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
> Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
existing
> heads
>
>
> > I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I would
like
> > to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the
US
> > Spec WRX heads will work.
> > AL(CO)
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
> > solid
> > > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not
sure
> > about
> > > the US version
> > >
> > > John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
modifying
> > existing
> > > heads
> > >
> > >
> > > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
> > engine?
> > > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
> > valve
> > > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula
One
> > heads
> > > > to
> > > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they
make a
> > diff
> > > > in what
> > > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > > > starters, but
> > > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are
going
> > to
> > > > be very
> > > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > > >
> > > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting
job.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
> > port
> > > > contour for
> > > > > optimum flow.
> > > > >
> > > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
> > biggie,
> > > > but the
> > > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in
reshaping
> > the
> > > > ports is
> > > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that
can
> > be
> > > > done to
> > > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can
be
> > > > removed and
> > > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
> > porting
> > > > will
> > > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the
entire
> > engine
> > > > > operating range.
> > > > >
> > > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It
makes
> > the
> > > > same
> > > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
> > Subaru
> > > > engines,
> > > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches
and
> > > > whatnot.
> > > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm
and
> > stay
> > > > there all
> > > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT
of
> > area
> > > > under
> > > > > the power curve.
> > > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15%
-
> > 25%
> > > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67%
more
> > gain
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass
and
> > > > friction, while
> > > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
> > volumetric
> > > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
> > rpm's
> > > > for an
> > > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also
just
> > do a
> > > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> > valvetrain
> > > > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
> > dependent
> > > > on how
> > > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing
heads
> > > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also
with
> > > > lifters,
> > > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up
there
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an
increase of
> > 5%
> > > > to 10%
> > > > >
> > > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > > > increase?
> > > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower
mass,
> > > > friction,
> > > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
> > usually
> > > > somebody
> > > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
> > take
> > > > advantage
> > > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
> > greater
> > > > than the
> > > > > 10%.
> > > > >
> > > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
> > provide
> > > > more torque
> > > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
> > lower
> > > > engine
> > > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
> > sometimes
> > > > even, a
> > > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and
the
> > > > cams, are
> > > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the
size
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too
well
> > > > spent
> > > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
> > lifting
> > > > the valve
> > > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp
rate
> > > > (acceleration
> > > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > > > volumetric
> > > > > efficiency.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
> > amount of
> > > > power
> > > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
> > desired on
> > > > the rpm
> > > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads
often
> > > > limited by
> > > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the
bucks to
> > get
> > > > the bang
> > > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where
you
> > shop
> > > > -
> > > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump
sticks
> > off
> > > > the shelf.
> > > > >
> > > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20%
with
> > a
> > > > top of the
> > > > > line valvetrain
> > > > >
> > > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred,
or
> > drop
> > > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where
you
> > shop,
> > > > and pick
> > > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
> > increase
> > > > in peak
> > > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> > increasing
> > > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system
does
> > not
> > > > choke off
> > > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> > downstream.
> > > > Once you
> > > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask
how
> > fast
> > > > do you
> > > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
> > spend?
> > > > For me,
> > > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> > temperature
> > > > associated
> > > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in
getting
> > the
> > > > cylinder
> > > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances
low
> > end
> > > > torque
> > > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
> > most
> > > > everybody
> > > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > > ssspoon@a...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
-
John Gillon
best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
The WRX uses under-bucket shims, which are about the shape and size of a M&M
sweet (if you have those in the USA) and these sit beneath the lifter
(called a bucket due to shape). ie. between the lifter and the valve stem.
These can never be displaced, and are the preferred high-performance
solution.
The twin turbo style over-bucket shims are about a 20cm flat disk that sits
in a recess on the top of the lifter. ie. between the cam and the lifter.
These shims have been known to become displaced at high rpm.
I did not realise that the EJ22 uses rocker arms! Yes, the rev limitations
will be a combination of the weight of the entire valve train, and hydraulic
lifters that usually suffer from "pump-up" when rev limits are exceeded.
Heavier springs are a common solution to increase rev limits, but introduce
more weight and stress on the valve train.
If the bore size and block jacket / galleries of an EJ22T are the same as an
EJ20, I would go for the later model DOHC heads (under-bucket or over-bucket
shims). Anyways, the name of the turbo game is to build torque, as peak hp
is around 6500rpm... why do want to rev much further than that?
John Gillon
----- Original Message -----
From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@hypermall.net>
To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:24 AM
Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying existing
heads
> Thanks for the information John I thought the price on these heads was
> a little to attractive. Now I need a little help or advice from
> someone who knows more about valves and lifters than I do. The US WRX
> will pull well past 8000 rpm and my EJ22t floats the valves at
> about 7200 rpm. Is this due to the boost pressure partially holding
> the valves open the weight of the valve train the need for stronger
> springs the hydraulic lifters or all of the above. I have some roller
> type mechanical-adjustable rocker arms but the design of them makes it
> more than a bolt on install. I wonder if they would make a substantial
> improvement.
> AL(CO)
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > No, the twin turbo introduced in late 93 also introduced open deck
> blocks.
> > This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact dates
> and
> > models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most definitely
> closed
> > deck.
> >
> > It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo / WRX
> heads
> > to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they are a
> > "bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the EJ22T.
> >
> > John Gillon
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
> > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
> existing
> > heads
> >
> >
> > > I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I would
> like
> > > to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the
> US
> > > Spec WRX heads will work.
> > > AL(CO)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > > > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > > > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > > > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > > > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
> > > solid
> > > > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not
> sure
> > > about
> > > > the US version
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
> modifying
> > > existing
> > > > heads
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
> > > engine?
> > > > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
> > > valve
> > > > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula
> One
> > > heads
> > > > > to
> > > > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they
> make a
> > > diff
> > > > > in what
> > > > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > > > > starters, but
> > > > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are
> going
> > > to
> > > > > be very
> > > > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting
> job.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
> > > port
> > > > > contour for
> > > > > > optimum flow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
> > > biggie,
> > > > > but the
> > > > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in
> reshaping
> > > the
> > > > > ports is
> > > > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that
> can
> > > be
> > > > > done to
> > > > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can
> be
> > > > > removed and
> > > > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
> > > porting
> > > > > will
> > > > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the
> entire
> > > engine
> > > > > > operating range.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It
> makes
> > > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
> > > Subaru
> > > > > engines,
> > > > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches
> and
> > > > > whatnot.
> > > > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm
> and
> > > stay
> > > > > there all
> > > > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT
> of
> > > area
> > > > > under
> > > > > > the power curve.
> > > > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15%
> -
> > > 25%
> > > > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67%
> more
> > > gain
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass
> and
> > > > > friction, while
> > > > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
> > > volumetric
> > > > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
> > > rpm's
> > > > > for an
> > > > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also
> just
> > > do a
> > > > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> > > valvetrain
> > > > > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
> > > dependent
> > > > > on how
> > > > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing
> heads
> > > > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also
> with
> > > > > lifters,
> > > > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up
> there
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an
> increase of
> > > 5%
> > > > > to 10%
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > > > > increase?
> > > > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower
> mass,
> > > > > friction,
> > > > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
> > > usually
> > > > > somebody
> > > > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
> > > take
> > > > > advantage
> > > > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
> > > greater
> > > > > than the
> > > > > > 10%.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
> > > provide
> > > > > more torque
> > > > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
> > > lower
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
> > > sometimes
> > > > > even, a
> > > > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and
> the
> > > > > cams, are
> > > > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the
> size
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too
> well
> > > > > spent
> > > > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > > > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
> > > lifting
> > > > > the valve
> > > > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp
> rate
> > > > > (acceleration
> > > > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > > > > volumetric
> > > > > > efficiency.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > > > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
> > > amount of
> > > > > power
> > > > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
> > > desired on
> > > > > the rpm
> > > > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads
> often
> > > > > limited by
> > > > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the
> bucks to
> > > get
> > > > > the bang
> > > > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where
> you
> > > shop
> > > > > -
> > > > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump
> sticks
> > > off
> > > > > the shelf.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20%
> with
> > > a
> > > > > top of the
> > > > > > line valvetrain
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred,
> or
> > > drop
> > > > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where
> you
> > > shop,
> > > > > and pick
> > > > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
> > > increase
> > > > > in peak
> > > > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> > > increasing
> > > > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system
> does
> > > not
> > > > > choke off
> > > > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> > > downstream.
> > > > > Once you
> > > > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask
> how
> > > fast
> > > > > do you
> > > > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
> > > spend?
> > > > > For me,
> > > > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> > > temperature
> > > > > associated
> > > > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in
> getting
> > > the
> > > > > cylinder
> > > > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances
> low
> > > end
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
> > > most
> > > > > everybody
> > > > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > > > ssspoon@a...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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sweet (if you have those in the USA) and these sit beneath the lifter
(called a bucket due to shape). ie. between the lifter and the valve stem.
These can never be displaced, and are the preferred high-performance
solution.
The twin turbo style over-bucket shims are about a 20cm flat disk that sits
in a recess on the top of the lifter. ie. between the cam and the lifter.
These shims have been known to become displaced at high rpm.
I did not realise that the EJ22 uses rocker arms! Yes, the rev limitations
will be a combination of the weight of the entire valve train, and hydraulic
lifters that usually suffer from "pump-up" when rev limits are exceeded.
Heavier springs are a common solution to increase rev limits, but introduce
more weight and stress on the valve train.
If the bore size and block jacket / galleries of an EJ22T are the same as an
EJ20, I would go for the later model DOHC heads (under-bucket or over-bucket
shims). Anyways, the name of the turbo game is to build torque, as peak hp
is around 6500rpm... why do want to rev much further than that?
John Gillon
----- Original Message -----
From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@hypermall.net>
To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:24 AM
Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying existing
heads
> Thanks for the information John I thought the price on these heads was
> a little to attractive. Now I need a little help or advice from
> someone who knows more about valves and lifters than I do. The US WRX
> will pull well past 8000 rpm and my EJ22t floats the valves at
> about 7200 rpm. Is this due to the boost pressure partially holding
> the valves open the weight of the valve train the need for stronger
> springs the hydraulic lifters or all of the above. I have some roller
> type mechanical-adjustable rocker arms but the design of them makes it
> more than a bolt on install. I wonder if they would make a substantial
> improvement.
> AL(CO)
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > No, the twin turbo introduced in late 93 also introduced open deck
> blocks.
> > This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact dates
> and
> > models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most definitely
> closed
> > deck.
> >
> > It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo / WRX
> heads
> > to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they are a
> > "bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the EJ22T.
> >
> > John Gillon
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
> > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
> existing
> > heads
> >
> >
> > > I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I would
> like
> > > to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that the
> US
> > > Spec WRX heads will work.
> > > AL(CO)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > > > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > > > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > > > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > > > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which are
> > > solid
> > > > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims... not
> sure
> > > about
> > > > the US version
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
> modifying
> > > existing
> > > > heads
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98 EJ20tt
> > > engine?
> > > > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and it's
> > > valve
> > > > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE Formula
> One
> > > heads
> > > > > to
> > > > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they
> make a
> > > diff
> > > > > in what
> > > > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain for
> > > > > starters, but
> > > > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices are
> going
> > > to
> > > > > be very
> > > > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful porting
> job.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the areas of
> > > port
> > > > > contour for
> > > > > > optimum flow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is no
> > > biggie,
> > > > > but the
> > > > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in
> reshaping
> > > the
> > > > > ports is
> > > > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting that
> can
> > > be
> > > > > done to
> > > > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides can
> be
> > > > > removed and
> > > > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done, head
> > > porting
> > > > > will
> > > > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the
> entire
> > > engine
> > > > > > operating range.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It
> makes
> > > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic Market
> > > Subaru
> > > > > engines,
> > > > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive Porches
> and
> > > > > whatnot.
> > > > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three rpm
> and
> > > stay
> > > > > there all
> > > > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a LOT
> of
> > > area
> > > > > under
> > > > > > the power curve.
> > > > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase: 15%
> -
> > > 25%
> > > > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or 67%
> more
> > > gain
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating mass
> and
> > > > > friction, while
> > > > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even better
> > > volumetric
> > > > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit higher
> > > rpm's
> > > > > for an
> > > > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could also
> just
> > > do a
> > > > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> > > valvetrain
> > > > > > components, and not the heads for an economical increase.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild - greatly
> > > dependent
> > > > > on how
> > > > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like doing
> heads
> > > > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but also
> with
> > > > > lifters,
> > > > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right up
> there
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an
> increase of
> > > 5%
> > > > > to 10%
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to 10%
> > > > > increase?
> > > > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the lower
> mass,
> > > > > friction,
> > > > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications. But
> > > usually
> > > > > somebody
> > > > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the desire to
> > > take
> > > > > advantage
> > > > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase much
> > > greater
> > > > > than the
> > > > > > 10%.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished to
> > > provide
> > > > > more torque
> > > > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration at
> > > lower
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed, or
> > > sometimes
> > > > > even, a
> > > > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit, and
> the
> > > > > cams, are
> > > > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing the
> size
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not too
> well
> > > > > spent
> > > > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the lower
> > > > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but also
> > > lifting
> > > > > the valve
> > > > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and ramp
> rate
> > > > > (acceleration
> > > > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to greater
> > > > > volumetric
> > > > > > efficiency.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam before a
> > > > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the same
> > > amount of
> > > > > power
> > > > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power where
> > > desired on
> > > > > the rpm
> > > > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve heads
> often
> > > > > limited by
> > > > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the
> bucks to
> > > get
> > > > > the bang
> > > > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending where
> you
> > > shop
> > > > > -
> > > > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump
> sticks
> > > off
> > > > > the shelf.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% - 20%
> with
> > > a
> > > > > top of the
> > > > > > line valvetrain
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few hundred,
> or
> > > drop
> > > > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on where
> you
> > > shop,
> > > > > and pick
> > > > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly additive)
> > > increase
> > > > > in peak
> > > > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> > > increasing
> > > > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction system
> does
> > > not
> > > > > choke off
> > > > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> > > downstream.
> > > > > Once you
> > > > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they ask
> how
> > > fast
> > > > > do you
> > > > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want to
> > > spend?
> > > > > For me,
> > > > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> > > temperature
> > > > > associated
> > > > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in
> getting
> > > the
> > > > > cylinder
> > > > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that enhances
> low
> > > end
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like armpits,
> > > most
> > > > > everybody
> > > > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > > > ssspoon@a...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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milehial2000
best bang for the buck in modifying existing heads
I have seen the large overbucket shims in a few EJ20 motors. It seems
that the '96-'98 heads could be usable but it would be a big
improvement if they were a later model with the under bucket shims.
It sounds like the later model heads are very close to the new US WRX
heads. The reason that we try for higher rpm here in the US is that we
seem to get shorted all the way around. On the bottom end we don't
have the turbo the rest of the world gets and we are limited on the
top end also. A big part of the high rpm problem is fuel, the factory
does not give anything extra when it comes to fuel pumps and when that
is solved the rev limiter is in the way.
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> The WRX uses under-bucket shims, which are about the shape and size
of a M&M
> sweet (if you have those in the USA) and these sit beneath the
lifter
> (called a bucket due to shape). ie. between the lifter and the valve
stem.
> These can never be displaced, and are the preferred high-performance
> solution.
>
> The twin turbo style over-bucket shims are about a 20cm flat disk
that sits
> in a recess on the top of the lifter. ie. between the cam and the
lifter.
> These shims have been known to become displaced at high rpm.
>
> I did not realise that the EJ22 uses rocker arms! Yes, the rev
limitations
> will be a combination of the weight of the entire valve train, and
hydraulic
> lifters that usually suffer from "pump-up" when rev limits are
exceeded.
> Heavier springs are a common solution to increase rev limits, but
introduce
> more weight and stress on the valve train.
>
> If the bore size and block jacket / galleries of an EJ22T are the
same as an
> EJ20, I would go for the later model DOHC heads (under-bucket or
over-bucket
> shims). Anyways, the name of the turbo game is to build torque, as
peak hp
> is around 6500rpm... why do want to rev much further than that?
>
> John Gillon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:24 AM
> Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
existing
> heads
>
>
> > Thanks for the information John I thought the price on these heads
was
> > a little to attractive. Now I need a little help or advice from
> > someone who knows more about valves and lifters than I do. The US
WRX
> > will pull well past 8000 rpm and my EJ22t floats the valves at
> > about 7200 rpm. Is this due to the boost pressure partially
holding
> > the valves open the weight of the valve train the need for
stronger
> > springs the hydraulic lifters or all of the above. I have some
roller
> > type mechanical-adjustable rocker arms but the design of them
makes it
> > more than a bolt on install. I wonder if they would make a
substantial
> > improvement.
> > AL(CO)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > > No, the twin turbo introduced in late 93 also introduced open
deck
> > blocks.
> > > This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact
dates
> > and
> > > models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most
definitely
> > closed
> > > deck.
> > >
> > > It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo /
WRX
> > heads
> > > to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they
are a
> > > "bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the
EJ22T.
> > >
> > > John Gillon
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
> > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
modifying
> > existing
> > > heads
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I
would
> > like
> > > > to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that
the
> > US
> > > > Spec WRX heads will work.
> > > > AL(CO)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...>
wrote:
> > > > > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > > > > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > > > > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > > > > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which
are
> > > > solid
> > > > > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims...
not
> > sure
> > > > about
> > > > > the US version
> > > > >
> > > > > John
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > > > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
> > modifying
> > > > existing
> > > > > heads
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98
EJ20tt
> > > > engine?
> > > > > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and
it's
> > > > valve
> > > > > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE
Formula
> > One
> > > > heads
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they
> > make a
> > > > diff
> > > > > > in what
> > > > > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain
for
> > > > > > starters, but
> > > > > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices
are
> > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > be very
> > > > > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful
porting
> > job.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the
areas of
> > > > port
> > > > > > contour for
> > > > > > > optimum flow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is
no
> > > > biggie,
> > > > > > but the
> > > > > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in
> > reshaping
> > > > the
> > > > > > ports is
> > > > > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting
that
> > can
> > > > be
> > > > > > done to
> > > > > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides
can
> > be
> > > > > > removed and
> > > > > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done,
head
> > > > porting
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the
> > entire
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > operating range.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It
> > makes
> > > > the
> > > > > > same
> > > > > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic
Market
> > > > Subaru
> > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive
Porches
> > and
> > > > > > whatnot.
> > > > > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three
rpm
> > and
> > > > stay
> > > > > > there all
> > > > > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a
LOT
> > of
> > > > area
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > the power curve.
> > > > > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase:
15%
> > -
> > > > 25%
> > > > > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or
67%
> > more
> > > > gain
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating
mass
> > and
> > > > > > friction, while
> > > > > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even
better
> > > > volumetric
> > > > > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit
higher
> > > > rpm's
> > > > > > for an
> > > > > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could
also
> > just
> > > > do a
> > > > > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> > > > valvetrain
> > > > > > > components, and not the heads for an economical
increase.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild -
greatly
> > > > dependent
> > > > > > on how
> > > > > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like
doing
> > heads
> > > > > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but
also
> > with
> > > > > > lifters,
> > > > > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right
up
> > there
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an
> > increase of
> > > > 5%
> > > > > > to 10%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to
10%
> > > > > > increase?
> > > > > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the
lower
> > mass,
> > > > > > friction,
> > > > > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications.
But
> > > > usually
> > > > > > somebody
> > > > > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the
desire to
> > > > take
> > > > > > advantage
> > > > > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase
much
> > > > greater
> > > > > > than the
> > > > > > > 10%.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished
to
> > > > provide
> > > > > > more torque
> > > > > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration
at
> > > > lower
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed,
or
> > > > sometimes
> > > > > > even, a
> > > > > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit,
and
> > the
> > > > > > cams, are
> > > > > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing
the
> > size
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not
too
> > well
> > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the
lower
> > > > > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but
also
> > > > lifting
> > > > > > the valve
> > > > > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and
ramp
> > rate
> > > > > > (acceleration
> > > > > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to
greater
> > > > > > volumetric
> > > > > > > efficiency.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam
before a
> > > > > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the
same
> > > > amount of
> > > > > > power
> > > > > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power
where
> > > > desired on
> > > > > > the rpm
> > > > > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve
heads
> > often
> > > > > > limited by
> > > > > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the
> > bucks to
> > > > get
> > > > > > the bang
> > > > > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending
where
> > you
> > > > shop
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump
> > sticks
> > > > off
> > > > > > the shelf.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% -
20%
> > with
> > > > a
> > > > > > top of the
> > > > > > > line valvetrain
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few
hundred,
> > or
> > > > drop
> > > > > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on
where
> > you
> > > > shop,
> > > > > > and pick
> > > > > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly
additive)
> > > > increase
> > > > > > in peak
> > > > > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> > > > increasing
> > > > > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction
system
> > does
> > > > not
> > > > > > choke off
> > > > > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> > > > downstream.
> > > > > > Once you
> > > > > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they
ask
> > how
> > > > fast
> > > > > > do you
> > > > > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want
to
> > > > spend?
> > > > > > For me,
> > > > > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> > > > temperature
> > > > > > associated
> > > > > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in
> > getting
> > > > the
> > > > > > cylinder
> > > > > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that
enhances
> > low
> > > > end
> > > > > > torque
> > > > > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like
armpits,
> > > > most
> > > > > > everybody
> > > > > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > > > > ssspoon@a...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
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> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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> > > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
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that the '96-'98 heads could be usable but it would be a big
improvement if they were a later model with the under bucket shims.
It sounds like the later model heads are very close to the new US WRX
heads. The reason that we try for higher rpm here in the US is that we
seem to get shorted all the way around. On the bottom end we don't
have the turbo the rest of the world gets and we are limited on the
top end also. A big part of the high rpm problem is fuel, the factory
does not give anything extra when it comes to fuel pumps and when that
is solved the rev limiter is in the way.
--- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> The WRX uses under-bucket shims, which are about the shape and size
of a M&M
> sweet (if you have those in the USA) and these sit beneath the
lifter
> (called a bucket due to shape). ie. between the lifter and the valve
stem.
> These can never be displaced, and are the preferred high-performance
> solution.
>
> The twin turbo style over-bucket shims are about a 20cm flat disk
that sits
> in a recess on the top of the lifter. ie. between the cam and the
lifter.
> These shims have been known to become displaced at high rpm.
>
> I did not realise that the EJ22 uses rocker arms! Yes, the rev
limitations
> will be a combination of the weight of the entire valve train, and
hydraulic
> lifters that usually suffer from "pump-up" when rev limits are
exceeded.
> Heavier springs are a common solution to increase rev limits, but
introduce
> more weight and stress on the valve train.
>
> If the bore size and block jacket / galleries of an EJ22T are the
same as an
> EJ20, I would go for the later model DOHC heads (under-bucket or
over-bucket
> shims). Anyways, the name of the turbo game is to build torque, as
peak hp
> is around 6500rpm... why do want to rev much further than that?
>
> John Gillon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:24 AM
> Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in modifying
existing
> heads
>
>
> > Thanks for the information John I thought the price on these heads
was
> > a little to attractive. Now I need a little help or advice from
> > someone who knows more about valves and lifters than I do. The US
WRX
> > will pull well past 8000 rpm and my EJ22t floats the valves at
> > about 7200 rpm. Is this due to the boost pressure partially
holding
> > the valves open the weight of the valve train the need for
stronger
> > springs the hydraulic lifters or all of the above. I have some
roller
> > type mechanical-adjustable rocker arms but the design of them
makes it
> > more than a bolt on install. I wonder if they would make a
substantial
> > improvement.
> > AL(CO)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...> wrote:
> > > No, the twin turbo introduced in late 93 also introduced open
deck
> > blocks.
> > > This also applies to the WRX but again I am not sure of exact
dates
> > and
> > > models, although the WRX STI, type R, type RA are most
definitely
> > closed
> > > deck.
> > >
> > > It is a common performance mod, to add the superior twin turbo /
WRX
> > heads
> > > to the single turbo Legacy EJ20 (which is closed deck) as they
are a
> > > "bolt-straight-on". I don't know if the same applies for the
EJ22T.
> > >
> > > John Gillon
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 3:26 PM
> > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
modifying
> > existing
> > > heads
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am assuming that this is a closed deck engine right ? I
would
> > like
> > > > to install these on a EJ22t that is closed deck. I know that
the
> > US
> > > > Spec WRX heads will work.
> > > > AL(CO)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., "John Gillon" <grilla@i...>
wrote:
> > > > > For the 205kW manual trans version...
> > > > > - solid lifter buckets with over-bucket shims
> > > > > - rev limit is 7500rpm
> > > > > - from late-96 the EJ20TT adopted the WRX3 style head which
are
> > > > solid
> > > > > lifter, but various WRX versions are under-bucket shims...
not
> > sure
> > > > about
> > > > > the US version
> > > > >
> > > > > John
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "milehial2000" <acroxford@h...>
> > > > > To: <BC-BFLegacyWorks@y...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:49 PM
> > > > > Subject: [BC-BFLegacyWorks] Re: best bang for the buck in
> > modifying
> > > > existing
> > > > > heads
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know what the valve setup is on the '96-'98
EJ20tt
> > > > engine?
> > > > > > also what is the rev limiter set at? And is this head and
it's
> > > > valve
> > > > > > mechanism the same as the US Spec WRX?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BC-BFLegacyWorks@y..., ssspoon@a... wrote:
> > > > > > > Bill Robinson has come down to earth from ULTIMATE
Formula
> > One
> > > > heads
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > something less costly than insane.
> > > > > > > We still really need to know the objectives because they
> > make a
> > > > diff
> > > > > > in what
> > > > > > > to do and what to spend.
> > > > > > > I think maybe WRX heads are at the top of the food chain
for
> > > > > > starters, but
> > > > > > > would require some other changes too.
> > > > > > > However, whatever you start with, I think the choices
are
> > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > be very
> > > > > > > similar about what to do...for the street.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My first choice is a good knowledgeable, skillful
porting
> > job.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rough casting leaves a lot to be desired in the
areas of
> > > > port
> > > > > > contour for
> > > > > > > optimum flow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The polishing is just an extension of porting, which is
no
> > > > biggie,
> > > > > > but the
> > > > > > > experience to know what to do, and what not to do, in
> > reshaping
> > > > the
> > > > > > ports is
> > > > > > > valuable and uncommon. There's more than just porting
that
> > can
> > > > be
> > > > > > done to
> > > > > > > the heads. Metal in the area of valve seats and guides
can
> > be
> > > > > > removed and
> > > > > > > combustion chambers can be reshaped. Properly done,
head
> > > > porting
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > provide an increase in torque and power throughout the
> > entire
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > operating range.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The legendary 22B uses the same block as the EJ22T. It
> > makes
> > > > the
> > > > > > same
> > > > > > > horsepower and torque as the other hot Japan Domestic
Market
> > > > Subaru
> > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > but it leaps away from three times more expensive
Porches
> > and
> > > > > > whatnot.
> > > > > > > Because the torque and horsepower peak at about three
rpm
> > and
> > > > stay
> > > > > > there all
> > > > > > > the way up to about 8500. It has what is described as a
LOT
> > of
> > > > area
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > the power curve.
> > > > > > > Cost to rework heads - $1200 to $2500 - power increase:
15%
> > -
> > > > 25%
> > > > > > > Notice it costs about twice as much to realize 2/3 or
67%
> > more
> > > > gain
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Working with the valve train to reduce reciprocating
mass
> > and
> > > > > > friction, while
> > > > > > > at the same time increasing size, will enable even
better
> > > > volumetric
> > > > > > > efficiency to aid in the above gains and also permit
higher
> > > > rpm's
> > > > > > for an
> > > > > > > increase at the top end of the power band. You could
also
> > just
> > > > do a
> > > > > > > competition valve and valve seat regrind with the fancy
> > > > valvetrain
> > > > > > > components, and not the heads for an economical
increase.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cost for new valvetrain components mild to wild -
greatly
> > > > dependent
> > > > > > on how
> > > > > > > exotic you go with materials and components is like
doing
> > heads
> > > > > > > You can go crazy not only with valve size changes, but
also
> > with
> > > > > > lifters,
> > > > > > > springs, keepers, nuts, and associated hardware.
> > > > > > > So valvetrain mods can go from almost nothing to right
up
> > there
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fairly expensive headwork
> > > > > > > Mild to wild valve train mods - $200 to $2500 for an
> > increase of
> > > > 5%
> > > > > > to 10%
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why spend at the top end of that range for only a 5% to
10%
> > > > > > increase?
> > > > > > > Because the 5% to 10% increase would result from the
lower
> > mass,
> > > > > > friction,
> > > > > > > and larger valve openings with no other modifications.
But
> > > > usually
> > > > > > somebody
> > > > > > > spending the bucks here is doing it because of the
desire to
> > > > take
> > > > > > advantage
> > > > > > > of some wild cam grind to realize an overall increase
much
> > > > greater
> > > > > > than the
> > > > > > > 10%.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Careful selection of a cam profile can be accomplished
to
> > > > provide
> > > > > > more torque
> > > > > > > down low in the operating range for greater acceleration
at
> > > > lower
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > speeds, or more high end power, for greater top speed,
or
> > > > sometimes
> > > > > > even, a
> > > > > > > little of both. And the thing is, the fancy valve shit,
and
> > the
> > > > > > cams, are
> > > > > > > kind of married to each other. Other than increasing
the
> > size
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > valves, the rest of that fancy valvetrain money is not
too
> > well
> > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > performancewise without a cam to take advantage of the
lower
> > > > > > valvetrain mass.
> > > > > > > So better breathing goes with bigger valve holes, but
also
> > > > lifting
> > > > > > the valve
> > > > > > > higher (lift), keeping it open longer (duration), and
ramp
> > rate
> > > > > > (acceleration
> > > > > > > and speed of opening and closing), all contribute to
greater
> > > > > > volumetric
> > > > > > > efficiency.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Given a choice, most people go with a different cam
before a
> > > > > > valvetrain mod,
> > > > > > > because it's usually less expensive, yields about the
same
> > > > amount of
> > > > > > power
> > > > > > > increase, and can be tailored to increase the power
where
> > > > desired on
> > > > > > the rpm
> > > > > > > band. Also valve size increase with modern 4 valve
heads
> > often
> > > > > > limited by
> > > > > > > the neighboring valves, so you really have to spend the
> > bucks to
> > > > get
> > > > > > the bang
> > > > > > > out of a valvetrain mod only.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cost for cams is pretty standard per stick depending
where
> > you
> > > > shop
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > > $500 - $1000 for custom stuff, half that for comp bump
> > sticks
> > > > off
> > > > > > the shelf.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Increase in power: 10% - 15% with stock valves, 15% -
20%
> > with
> > > > a
> > > > > > top of the
> > > > > > > line valvetrain
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So you can get some appreciable increases for a few
hundred,
> > or
> > > > drop
> > > > > > > somewhere in the hood of 3 to 4 large, depending on
where
> > you
> > > > shop,
> > > > > > and pick
> > > > > > > up a 35 to 40 percent (it's not usually linearly
additive)
> > > > increase
> > > > > > in peak
> > > > > > > power just by optimizing volumetric efficiency, without
> > > > increasing
> > > > > > > compression or boost. This assumes your induction
system
> > does
> > > > not
> > > > > > choke off
> > > > > > > your gains upstream or your exhaust does not smother it
> > > > downstream.
> > > > > > Once you
> > > > > > > get started, it can be hard to stop. That's why they
ask
> > how
> > > > fast
> > > > > > do you
> > > > > > > want to go? They're really asking how much do you want
to
> > > > spend?
> > > > > > For me,
> > > > > > > aside from increasing boost, which eventually leads to
> > > > temperature
> > > > > > associated
> > > > > > > problems, somewhere in the range of $2000 to $2500 in
> > getting
> > > > the
> > > > > > cylinder
> > > > > > > head ported with a more aggressive cam profile that
enhances
> > low
> > > > end
> > > > > > torque
> > > > > > > even further is probably my limit. Limits are like
armpits,
> > > > most
> > > > > > everybody
> > > > > > > has one. What's your limit Bill?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Larry Witherspoon
> > > > > > > 4260 W 182nd St.
> > > > > > > Torrance (Los Angeles), CA 90504
> > > > > > > day/office phone 562-982-7720
> > > > > > > larry.d.witherspoon@b...
> > > > > > > ssspoon@a...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, please send an email to:
> > > > > > BC-BFLegacyWorks-unsubscribe@e...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
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> >
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> >
> >
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