Ethanol retrofit?

[Rasta SLO]

I like LPG for an altenative fuel, especially in a performance application.
super clean burn, 105-110 octane, most propane mixers are designed to handle boost and are super easy to tune. its energy density is not that of gasoline but the very high octane negates that when you build a motor specifically for LPG, IE 12:1 or lots of boost.

Jup, a lot of people with petrol engines here in europe are converting them to run on lpg. The investment here is effective in around 2 years, but you have to have in mind that lpg costs around 0.80$ per liter here.

Imagine a Greasel-hybrid? Free fuel and 100mpg, very low emissions, and it smells like french fries. That's a way to take advantage of the fast-food-crazed general American population.

The modern diesel engines can´t run on cleaned waste oil. Why? Because the injectors in the high presure system will get clogged up. Many people did run on cleaned oil to save a couple of bucks. In the end they paid 10 times more for the repair than they would if they would run on normal diesel.

[Manarius]

I'm dredging this back up and making a motion that it be moved to the ashtray so more people see it.

I saw a news clip tonight about how Brazil is 100% energy independent thanks to Ethanol. Their gas prices are less than 1/2 of what we pay. They make ethanol out of Sugarcaine and 3/4 cars owned there now run on the stuff. So, why are we so opposed to it here? If it could stop our dependence on foreign oil, I don't see the big deal.

[555BCTurbo]

I like LPG for an altenative fuel, especially in a performance application.
super clean burn, 105-110 octane, most propane mixers are designed to handle boost and are super easy to tune. its energy density is not that of gasoline but the very high octane negates that when you build a motor specifically for LPG, IE 12:1 or lots of boost.

Jup, a lot of people with petrol engines here in europe are converting them to run on lpg. The investment here is effective in around 2 years, but you have to have in mind that lpg costs around 0.80$ per liter here.

Imagine a Greasel-hybrid? Free fuel and 100mpg, very low emissions, and it smells like french fries. That's a way to take advantage of the fast-food-crazed general American population.

The modern diesel engines can´t run on cleaned waste oil. Why? Because the injectors in the high presure system will get clogged up. Many people did run on cleaned oil to save a couple of bucks. In the end they paid 10 times more for the repair than they would if they would run on normal diesel.

You are correct about straight veggie oil...however...the new high pressure common rail motors can run Biodiesel...and I expect that they would do well with mustard and peanut oil.

[sammydafish]

The modern diesel engines can´t run on cleaned waste oil. Why? Because the injectors in the high presure system will get clogged up. Many people did run on cleaned oil to save a couple of bucks. In the end they paid 10 times more for the repair than they would if they would run on normal diesel.

That's not true, well, not entirely. If you were to run something like a modern TDI engine on SWVO (Straight Waste Vegetable Oil) then yes, you would clog things up. Animal fats in the waste oil causes problems. This is easily taken care of through titration. The process uses a small amount of ethanol or methanol mixed into the waste oil. The ethanol bonds with fats and they settle to the bottom of the tank. Then the biodiesel can be pumped out and into your fuel tank.


If you live in the south, biodiesel is a very good way to go. In the north where there are colder climates, a hybrid bio/petrol diesel setup is needed as the biodiesel does not cold start very well. I've seen some of these setups built where they carry a small tank of petrol diesel for cold starts then switch to bio. I plan to build a setup like this in the near future. I'm actually working on a grant to do a feasibility study on the amount of fuel that could be created from recycling materials found in the local area. The concept is that a small town might be at least partially self supported on it's own waste.

[sammydafish]

by the way, for all you rally lovers, and tree huggers, this thing is awesome. http://www.rallyvw.com/

I rapped with John Hamilton last fall at Rally NY. They ran that race on Soybean oil. They also run B100. The car is pretty damn cool and makes something like 350lbs torque at 2k. This thing pulls out of low speed turns like nothing else.

Look out in LeMans this year too, there will be a biodiesel powerd lola on the scene

[Rasta SLO]

Belive me i know. I live in Europe, where almost every new car sold here is diesel (except subaru) . And the problems occour only when people use cleaned waste oil. I don´t know how are things with biodiesel because its not sold here yet.

Bottom line, i don`t care because i hate stinking diesels!

[sammydafish]

Belive me i know. I live in Europe, where almost every new car sold here is diesel (except subaru) . And the problems occour only when people use cleaned waste oil. I don´t know how are things with biodiesel because its not sold here yet.

Bottom line, i don`t care because i hate stinking diesels!

the people you're talking about are probably just filtering the waste oil. That's just not enough, you'll get the problems you're talking about if you just filter it. It needs more than that, it actually needs to be chemically cleaned.

[206er]

TDi/electric hybrids should be coming soon.
in the early 90's chrysler had a concept car that weighed 4000lbs based on a stratus, running a diesel electric hybrid, and got 75mpg in normal driving.

[scuzzy]

I was talking to my boss about this recently. He mentioned wanting to buy a VW Wagon and sell his truck so that he keeps some cargo space but gains some fuel efficiency.

I told him that it's a great idea. After all I'm a big fan of wagons - seeing as I drive a legacy wagon. I told him why doesn't he take it a step further, and get a diesel wagon. The mileage increase would be superior and he'd be damn happy for it - since fuel prices are only going up.

He lives about 20 miles from work (I live less than five); He has to get on the interstate to get home, and passes several exits with stations that have diesel fuel.

He told me that he hates pumping gas - and it seems like it takes 15 minutes for him (less than five for me - including stopping and driving away) Abso fucking lutely hates it. Yet, he REFUSES to buy anything diesel because there are no stations local to him that sell it - except for the ones on the interstate. Nevermind the fact that he HAS to get on the interstate to go into town.

This is the way of the lazy american. They would rather spend more money to retain some convenience than go out of their way and spend an extra five minutes every two weeks (more mileage = less filling up) getting off the fucking interstate to fill up.

face it people. Ethanol isn't the answer, if it was - when it was first publically utilized in the 70's for this application we would have been all over it.

Diesel is still a great way, and Turbo Diesel hybrids go a damn long way. But there's some kind of bad mentality about diesel's in america.

Polls have run, and most people say that even at the current gas prices, people will still buy 10mpg SUV's because it's a fucking status symbol. The people who can afford them aren't affected by gas prices either, it's still dirt cheap in comparison to alot of other things.

I pay $3.60 for a gallon of milk that lasts me a week.

[sammydafish]

Diesel is still a great way, and Turbo Diesel hybrids go a damn long way. But there's some kind of bad mentality about diesel's in america.

This is totaly true, mostly becasue people are not farmiliar with modern diesel technology and the only experiance they have is trucks from crappy American manufacturers. Mercedes Benz plans to change this. Next year every model Benz will be available in the US in a diesel variant using thier Buetec technology. In the 09 model year Jeep plans to release every model with a diesel bassed on the MB bluetec engines. They already sell the trucks here (big rigs) they get nearly double the economy of traditional diesel rigs and have no visable pipe emisions.

When people in the US think diesel, they think loud and black smoke. That's simply not the case today and it's going to be hard to kill that concept in the public's eye. That's one big reason why there are a lot of European manufacturers that don't sell here. Many of them only offer model lines in diesels, so even if they passed US emissions standards, they still wouldn't sell great, so it's just not good business for them.

[sammydafish]

Check this out, Subaru plans to have Diesels by 08. that's pretty damn cool... plus thier deal to use Toyota hybrid technology opens the posibility that they could go down the avenue of a Diesel/electric hybrid by 2010 or so.... I'm pretty interested to see what they do in the next year or two.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11997143/

[free5ty1e]

Cool stuff - and the Legacy will be first they say I like how they also make sure to state that they will be maintaining their independance and not merging with Toyota. Legacy AWD Diesel Hybrid... sounds tasty.

[evolutionmovement]

I'd like to try to make my spare EJ22T into a diesel, but have no idea about timing and programming, nor piston design. Imagine that in a 2100 lbs. car. What gas prices? Oh, you want to pull that stump out of the ground? Got a chain?

[206er]

that would be a lot of trouble. but an awd diesel station wagon is a rare thing.
see VW quantum 1.6TD.

[sammydafish]

I'd like to try to make my spare EJ22T into a diesel, but have no idea about timing and programming, nor piston design. Imagine that in a 2100 lbs. car. What gas prices? Oh, you want to pull that stump out of the ground? Got a chain?

I've actualy been thinking about this a lot lately, especialy as I'm putting my EJ22 back together. You'd need an EJ22T block. The closed deck would be required to put up with the stress. A custom piston and no head gasget (o-ring it) along with some head milling and you could get the compression high enough (18-20:1 shuld be able to be achieved). You might need to upgrade the rods, actualy you probably would have to. Custom, harder rod bearing might also be needed. You could mount an injector where the spark plug is. A Bosch EDC16 could run the whole thing and can be pretty easily programed if you have the right equipment. You'd need to mount a throttle sensor on the pedal and loose the throttle body. You'd need a new fuel pump, probably run two, an in take pre pump and a high pressure pump near the engine.

I really do want to try this, unfortunatly, I just don't have the time right now, maybe in a year or two. I've been keeping my eye out for a nice TDI golf in the mean time.

[free5ty1e]

That sounds like a project I'd like to take on later this year or next year... that'd be badass.

[evolutionmovement]

Good point about ringing the deck. I was trying to think of how to handle the head gaskets. I figure if Honda can make an alloy diesel for the Euro Accord, our turbo blocks could take the beating. I still wonder if there's a piston design that would be more efficient for the airflow characteristics of diesel and could add to the CR.

[Richard]

You would also need to run a glow plug setup if you planned on driving in cold climates. Diesels really don't like the cold, especially extreme cold. Had quite a few no-starts and gel-ups at work this past winter, and it was a relatively mild season.

[206er]

meh. I would just wait for subarus diesels to come out, that sounds like a ton of work and money for something that will potentially just ruin all the parts. not to mention when something does break, oh crap there goes several hundred on some more custom shit.
FWIW... a propane setup that can deliver 350 horse is around 300 bucks. the mixers are quite good at keeping the AFR in the right place.
impco 425 mixer, impco model E regulator, tank, and lines. that is for reconditioned stuff. but then you also have to make an adapter plate to the EJ manifold.
propane mixers have 1 adjuster screw, and have a boost reference port, so they are perfect for a turbo motor and super easy to tune.
also, to about 12 psi, you do not need an intercooler do to the evaporation effect of the LPG turning to gas.
you have to run a mixer as blow through with an intercooler, because if it were to be draw through, an entire intake tract full of propane/air mix would be VERY dangerous.

[sammydafish]

You would also need to run a glow plug setup if you planned on driving in cold climates. Diesels really don't like the cold, especially extreme cold. Had quite a few no-starts and gel-ups at work this past winter, and it was a relatively mild season.

then you don't drive a diesel made within the past 10 years.... no passenger cars use glow plugs anymore and most industrial and truck applications don't either. Gelling is a different issue, still possable but diesel fuel sold in cold climates usualy have anti-gel agents added to them to help prevent this. It is an issue if runing biodiesel though, that's why people who run home-made biodiesel in cold climates usualy run a petro-diesel tank for startup.

[206er]

the antigel additives for petrodiesel work on biodiesel as well.

[Binford]

meh. I would just wait for subarus diesels to come out, that sounds like a ton of work and money for something that will potentially just ruin all the parts. not to mention when something does break, oh crap there goes several hundred on some more custom shit.
FWIW... a propane setup that can deliver 350 horse is around 300 bucks. the mixers are quite good at keeping the AFR in the right place.
impco 425 mixer, impco model E regulator, tank, and lines. that is for reconditioned stuff. but then you also have to make an adapter plate to the EJ manifold.
propane mixers have 1 adjuster screw, and have a boost reference port, so they are perfect for a turbo motor and super easy to tune.
also, to about 12 psi, you do not need an intercooler do to the evaporation effect of the LPG turning to gas.
you have to run a mixer as blow through with an intercooler, because if it were to be draw through, an entire intake tract full of propane/air mix would be VERY dangerous.

Have you come up with a viable way to mount a mixer like this? My best idea is putting it inside a custom made box (like a top hat) where my WRX intercooler is now but I don't know if there would be enough room. Also, I didn't think a 425 would be able to be used at more than like 8 psi. I also don't like how heavy the tanks are. I would think somebody would be able to come up with some type of composite tank that weighs alot less. I would definitey love to do this someday!

[Carbix]

im too lazy to read all that but it says right in that lil book that comes with your car to not use ethanol. It fugles it all up

[dzx]

I'm suprised the VW hasn't made a small truck with that TDI that they have.

[206er]

they do
its called the saveiro and sold in central/south america.

the 425 you dont need to put in a box, what I was going to do was have a plate welded to the throttle body to match the bolt pattern of the mixer, and just run a boost reference from the manifold.
as far as being able to handle more than 8 psi it has been suggested that a reinforcement of the top plate on the mixer would help. the stock hat is held on by one little bolt, probably better to make a flange to have 6 bolts or something and a straight inlet rather than 90* hat.