Limits of EJ22T sensors; MAP, MAF

FuJi K · Post by **FuJi K** » Wed May 24, 2006 6:21 am

I was wondering on these two things. So I hear that the MAP will be efficient up to 14psi, and the METAL MAF doesn't have that much of a window as the plastic JECS ones.

I plan on putting in a TDO5H-16G and running 14-18psi on WRX or STi TMIC. I'm reading up on the E-Manage Ultimate and also Apexi PowerFC. So...still deciding which to use as EM. Power FC?

What are my limitations with the MAF and MAP....will the PowerFC be able to control the MAP or MAF well enough so they don't max out on readings? Or swap to WRX ones?

I happen to have pulled out a complete EJ22T , ECU/harness from a '91 Legacy Turbo, rear spindles and crossmember from the local UPULL. Good complete swap for under $200!

FuJi

NICO · Post by **NICO** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:03 am

welcome fuji!! i like your name as well lol

about your map you need nothing but a vrg3 fcd } http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~v/fcd/. thank's vrg3

for your stock aluminium turbo legacy maf, you need to take it apart then lookin the maf. you will see a plate with 2 screws, remove it. bye removing it! cfm table increase so much i could just about max it out at 20psi.

about the tuneing if your in canada there is a local tuner that can tune your stock ecu. no need for cutting! or spending huge money byeing any engien managment. place is www.neetronics.com

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed May 24, 2006 7:06 pm

If you're going to be tuning, you can use the JECS sensor, and just snip the line that identifies it as the incorrect MAF sensor to the ECU.

NICO, regarding removing the plate on the aluminum sensor....I know you guys did this, but without doing some testing to verify the voltage doesn't jump around due to poor flow characteristics, I couldn't recommend anyone else to do this.

The plate was obviously put there for a reason, and by removing it....you could create some issues....

NICO · Post by **NICO** » Wed May 24, 2006 7:27 pm

josh i was thinking the same thing but i have no problem at all, its been a while now and my car runs perfect. no stalling no hick ups nothing.

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Wed May 24, 2006 8:25 pm

If you were going to stick with the stock sensors and their range limitations, seems like EM would be pointless?

Your motivation to get EM is by definition to run the car at an output that exceeds the range of the stock sensors and end-to-end fuel system.

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Thu May 25, 2006 6:32 am

if you are going to be using a 16g at 14-18 PSI, im sure you will already be at the limits of those injectors. im sure you will need some sort of engine management to keep it in check.

if you are going to use the stock injectors, be sure to have a wideband plugged in, and checking to see if you are running lean. also, check on your IDC. you dont want that too high.

FuJi K · Post by **FuJi K** » Fri May 26, 2006 6:20 am

Thanks for the replies and tips.

I may be picking up a '98 2.5L intake manifold for my DOHC 2.5L heads. I know there's a FEW little things you can mod behind the passenger head for oil fittings and coolant.

How are the sensors on this '98 Manifold different and the same as the 22T intake manifold? I know there are a few sensors that are the same......
What are my injector offerings? STi side feeds fit or no?

Now for EM.....Maybe later down the road I might just go with a Perrin GT35R kit.......but really.....right now, I'm going to find me a TDO5H-16G. The Perfect Power isn't doing too well with our ODBI ECU's.....
The Apexi PowerFC is a standalone....but so it seems that the 22T's wiring is similar to the '94 WRX? I gathered a few findings on that while researching. Also a problem would be the ignition signal.....4 channel/2 channel deal on '94 WRX and EJ22T. Of course someone mentioned about the MSD individual coil pack thingy....which is fine as well to solve the problem.

Are there anyone running the PowerFC at all? I have to get a wideband anyways because it'll do me good. Also EGT helps a lot too beside looking at AFR....

Right now, I have already a EJ22T with my '99 2.2L singleport heads on my Impreza w/o turbo. The OTHER complete motor will be dropped in probably the next 2 months after I figure something out. It'll be dropped in with it's factory stuff, and WRX or STi TMIC running with the stock VF11. My EJ22T in my car right now I'll build up with my DOHC 2.5L heads, then drop that in with 16G turbo and the supporting mods and EM (dunno which one to really choose).

Right now I'm tearing into the wiring of the EJ22T. I'm taking off the cruise, ABS, AC, whiper motor, auto tranny and etc apart from the ECU and its wires. I'll have to splice in a fe to the guage cluster, and maybe switch a wire on the ECU to tell it that it's a manual tranny; I dunno which wire it is yet.....

Progress so far......

Thoughts?

Psychoreo · Post by **Psychoreo** » Fri May 26, 2006 6:58 am

lol...target bag^^ i work assets protection there...

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Fri May 26, 2006 7:12 pm

Couldnt you have a larger diameter housing built for the MAF? Then the same mass would be going through more area, which would mean the ECU would read less air, which you could correct with an safc?

NICO · Post by **NICO** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:55 pm

i dont get everyone on hear, i just told all you guys all you need to do is remove that dame plate in the maf and you can tune fuel up to 20psi. a perfesional tuned my car and siad that we solved this problem.

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Sun May 28, 2006 2:42 am

a lot of people are skeptical.

FuJi K · Post by **FuJi K** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:34 am

A lot of people don't like to take risks....hahahha

But ya, I'll do that trick, tuning is all that's needed really...

How do I go about larger injectors? So I hear the EJ22T rails dont' fit the DOHC 2.5L. The 1.8L rails fit? 550cc STi injectors on 1.8L rails?

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:36 am

the ej22t rails dont fit the 2.5L DOHC manifold?? damn thats what i was gonna do too. anyone know if the ej22t injectors fit into 1.8 rails into the 2.5L DOHC manifold??

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:21 am

Project_Legacy wrote:the ej22t rails dont fit the 2.5L DOHC manifold?? damn thats what i was gonna do too. anyone know if the ej22t injectors fit into 1.8 rails into the 2.5L DOHC manifold??

no the rails don't fit because the EJ25 block is phyiscally wider, meaning the manifold is streched more

FuJi K · Post by **FuJi K** » Mon May 29, 2006 7:43 am

The fuel rail is bolted onto the intake manifold, IIRC......
But it's the injectors that may be different. So basically take off the little 2 bolts where the rail connects to the other metal hose line and swap with 1.8L rails w/ STi injectors??

FuJi K · Post by **FuJi K** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:14 am

FUEL STUFF!!!

NICO · Post by **NICO** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:34 am

sounds good.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:49 pm

you mean the metal plate attached to two screws that sits inside the back of the maf? The aluminum, non JECS one, right?

the one that restricts airflow across the maf sensor wires?

See just doing that to a stock ECU, I think you're going to run into overfueling.

A problem will arise where it takes less air to make the MAF read the same signal (say 2 volts at the ECU)

So in theory, the MAF could max out at part throttle, 3000 rpms - which is 5 volts. The ECU in turn opens the injectors to 100%, and the engine dies.

Just a thought.

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:04 pm

so, the 2.5 block is a little wider than a 2.2 or 2.0 block? meaning, i wouldnt be able to use 2.5 manifold on a 2.2 or 2.0 block? that cant be right, because people have throwin 2.5 heads and manifolds onto 2.2's and 2.0's before. it may just be that the heads are what makes it "wider".

the fuel rails for side feeds are on the manifold. i THINK the fuel rails for top feeds are what you are talking about Scuzzy. they are configured differently.

i was told, i would be able to use the 2.5 fuel rails with the ej22t injectors.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:38 pm

Project_Legacy wrote:so, the 2.5 block is a little wider than a 2.2 or 2.0 block? meaning, i wouldnt be able to use 2.5 manifold on a 2.2 or 2.0 block? that cant be right, because people have throwin 2.5 heads and manifolds onto 2.2's and 2.0's before. it may just be that the heads are what makes it "wider".

the fuel rails for side feeds are on the manifold. i THINK the fuel rails for top feeds are what you are talking about Scuzzy. they are configured differently.

i was told, i would be able to use the 2.5 fuel rails with the ej22t injectors.

EJ22 injectors are side feed Turbo and non.

Yes, the 2.5 block has a longer piston stroke (4mm) and the block must be longer to compensate. This puts the heads out further on the EJ25 block than the EJ22 block - thus the intake manifold from an EJ22T will not bolt up to an EJ25 block/head configuration.

The difference from a 2.0 block and a 2.5 block in stroke is 0.4" - so it's a definite no.

The fuel rails on side feed injectors connect to the injector assembly on the outside of the intake manifold. So EJ22 rails will not connect to EJ25 manifolds. Again it's a length/width issue.

You should be able to put EJ22T injectors in EJ25 fuel rails (I can't confirm if they're side or top feed) - but you can't put EJ22T fuel rails on EJ25 manifolds, or EJ25 manifolds on EJ22 blocks - or vice versa.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:32 pm

It cant be THAT much to have custom rails fabbed for your application tho, Id give a couple machine shops a ring and see what they have to say

not8player · Post by **not8player** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:49 pm

http://www.outbackmotors.com/fuel_rail_setup.htm
I just pickup a set of this for my build.

Just sharing an option in regards to fuel rails.

But if you were loking into making your own rails, plenty of place where you can buy fuel rail aluminum extrusions.
e.g.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/store/74734.html

franticfour · Post by **franticfour** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:50 am

People should quit posting wrong, stupid info if they havent actually done it!
" no the rails don't fit because the EJ25 block is phyiscally wider, meaning the manifold is streched more"

This is how all the good info gets diluted on the internet.

The block is not wider.

The longer stroke 2.5 just has the wrist pin relocated towards the top of the piston.
I've built many hybrid motors (2.5 block /2.2t heads ),
(2.2T block/2.5 heads), 2.2T block /2.5 stroker crank/ 20G heads & manifold) ect...
Please don't confuse people that are trying to get correct info to make there plans on.
This is a great resource let's keep it that way.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:41 am

franticfour wrote:People should quit posting wrong, stupid info if they havent actually done it!
" no the rails don't fit because the EJ25 block is phyiscally wider, meaning the manifold is streched more"

This is how all the good info gets diluted on the internet.

The block is not wider.

The longer stroke 2.5 just has the wrist pin relocated towards the top of the piston.
I've built many hybrid motors (2.5 block /2.2t heads ),
(2.2T block/2.5 heads), 2.2T block /2.5 stroker crank/ 20G heads & manifold) ect...
Please don't confuse people that are trying to get correct info to make there plans on.
This is a great resource let's keep it that way.

I'm sorry, I was ALWAYS told that the block is longer because of the increase in stroke.

Perhaps you need to post in 'stuff you need to know' and clear up what exactly works with what.

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:53 am

ahh thats right! the stroke is longer on the 2.5, but thats due to the crank/rods being different i believe. i knew someone had used 2.5heads/manifolds on 2.2 and 2.0 blocks before. thanks for clearing all that up.

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Limits of EJ22T sensors; MAP, MAF

Limits of EJ22T sensors; MAP, MAF