Please help me diagnose - (I think my engine is toast). :(

[High PSI]

Here's the story.

Snow is finally in the forecast here in New England, so I decided to take the time to give the SS a good going through as it's my only means of transportation in the white stuff (I have three other cars...one's broken and the other two aren't suitable for snow), and because I was going to be hogging up the garage for the next three months with my Camaro while I get it ready for the next Auto-x season.

I drained the oil and replaced the filter. When I went to fill the engine back up, I was surprised (read: ripping pissed) to find that my douchebag roomate had stolen a few quarts of my oil to put into his POS 1932 VW Golf. I was left with only four quarts, but considering the manual says the car has a 4.2 quart oil capacity, I figured I'd be fine (final words??). While the oil was draining I also figured it would be a perfect time to finally see why I was getting the occational CEL when I was on the highway, I pulled codes:

22 Knock sensor
32 Oxygen sensor
35 Canister purge solenoid valve

...nothing to be too overly concerned about, though I did plan to take care of at least the knock and oxygen sensor this weekend. I also checked my coolant and saw I was about 6oz. low (I have a small leak where the upper radiator hose connects to the radiator), so I topped that off.

I started the car up, checked for oil leaks - nothing.

The next morning I went out and let the car warm up for a good 5-min before driving to work, as it was extremely cold. Car started up immediately, without any drama, as it always does.

Once the car was at operating temperature, I drove it a little spiritedly as I was running late. I came to a point where there was a small straight away, opened it up a bit, and made sure to shift as I passed a group of kids so they could hear my SSQV BOV (they always get a kick out of it). I took a left onto a different street, so it was a 90 degree turn that I took at some speed. This street then is straight for a good 200ft and then turns 90 degrees to the right. It's a tough corner so I was slowing down (on the brakes) before I went into the corner, trail braked a bit (I'm going maybe 15mph-20mph at this point...it's like a tight 90 degree turn on any auto-x course), and then left it Neutral with no throttle input as I coasted through the corner.

Immediately and suddenly, as I cranked the wheel to the right to take the turn, my engine started making a LOUD, frightening (to me) sound. It kind of sounded like a belt sqealing at a much lower pitch, with what sounded like an extremely aggressive and violent lifter-tick being played through a megaphone (as I have never heard lifter tick this loud) mixed in. I gave the car a little gas and checked my volt meter (on my turbo timer) and saw that it responded appropriately. My power steering also felt dead on and didn't affect the sound, so it didn't feel like the belt was slipping (no A/C belt, so that was the only accessory belt to check). I popped the hood (probably waking up everyone in the neigborhood) turned the car off, and saw nothing that looked out of the ordinary. Being only 1.5 miles from home, I decided to limp it home. The car, although insanely loud, didn't seem to run any differently at part throttle (didn't really open i up for obvious reasons).

Yesterday I stopped by Subaru and picked up a new Alternator/Power Steering belt. When I got home last night, I checked the oil...I was about 2/3 of a quart low (Note: I didn't check the oil after I filled the engine up, so I have nothing to compare this number to), so I topped it off. Pulled the old belt off last night and decided to start the car without any belts to see if it still made the sound. As I suspected, it did. So I thought to myself, "Well...I don't think it's anything simple....time to check for the worst".

A compression check yielded the following. This is illustrated as you would see the engine working on it from the front of the car.

___Windshield____
I...............................I
I..145psi......125psi..I
I...............................I
I..140psi......105psi..I
I...............................I
I_____Grille______I


Is what I'm hearing piston slap on that front right cylinder? My thoughts are that the hard corner plus being low on oil lead to oil starvation, which caused that piston ring to eat it.

Please give me any input you guys might have as I'm at a loss of what to do. I can't afford (time wise) to pull the engine and rebuild it, so I'm thinking I might have to start looking for another car and start parting this one out.

[BAC5.2]

As long as the oil was above the "e" line, then you are fine on oil level. I would have checked the oil immediately after changing the oil and have topped it up appropriately though.

I doubt it's oil starvation.

105 is really low though, so it does sound like you might have popped a ringland. It could be piston slap or it could be a valve tapping the piston. It could be a lot of different things. It could be rod knock. Either way, it's not good.

I bet what did happen is not a result of the oil change, but simply a coincidence.

If you condemn this motor to the wrecker and decide to replace it with one from BlackBart, then I'd just keep driving it until it totally fails. It should at least get you through the winter, and a replacement longblock is a lot easier to swap than rebuilding your shortblock.

[Blackbart]

I can sell you a good motor and take yours on trade providing that the cases don't have any rod damage, bad cylinder walls are okay.
Is this the car you wanted the body parts for? (winestone?)

[High PSI]

Ok, so I started the car up yesterday morning to drive to work. When I started it up, the car idled, but ran VERY roughly. Furthermore, it seemed to completely ignore any input I gave it from the throttle. I gave the throttle a couple quick blips and got no response. Putting the pedal to the floor yielded nothing as well. As I was under the hood making sure I didn't have any vaccum leaks and the plugs were tight, the engine revved up to about 3,000 rpm, and then slowly dropped back down to a normal idle. I drove the car and it drove normal for the most part, with the acception that I had to rev it a bit more than normal when slipping the clutch from a stop.

The car sat outside for a few hours while at work. When I jumped back in it it did the same thing it did before with not responding to the throttle. I was in the car this time, just letting it warm up, and as soon as the temp needle moved the car jumped up to 3,000rpm, dropped down to a normal idle and smoothed out, and then ran as it had on the way to work (crappy down low but not much different from 3,000 rpm on).

I had to drive the car 60 miles to my parents place, and kept my fingers crossed. On the highway, the engine felt 100%. I even gave it a bit of the 'ol Italian tune up and it felt nearly as quick as ever. Halfway through my drive I killed my stereo and noticed that the engine ticking noise had all but stopped (I could still hear it, but it was far fainter than before). I was pretty exstatic thinking that the car had just fixed itself...

...and was until I came to a stop light off the highway offramp. When the light turned green, I attempted to dive the car as I normally did and it stumbled hard, almost stalling. I quickly put the car in neutral, revved it up, and slipped the clutch out. Once driving, the car SEEMED to drive pretty normally, but pulling away from a stop is VERY difficult.

I came to a couple more stop signs and realized that the car seems to drive well when it's under boost, but like crap when it's trying to pull air in on it's own. Basically, the way to pull from a stop is to rev it up so that the car gets a little boost from the load placed on it by accelerating the engine mass and the flywheel (really glad right now to have such a small turbo), and slip it out. Once under boost, the car doesn't seem to have much less power than it used to, but under vaccum, the car is barely drivable.

Any more ideas? I'm going to drain the oil tonight and see if I find anything I don't want in it. I'm also going to try to pull the timing belt covers to check my cam timing.

Frank - yes, this is the Winestone car that I was in the middle of restoring with all those body pieces. It was mechanially 100%, and with those body pieces, would have been pretty mint.

[Blackbart]

Hvae you pulled the codes again after this happened?

[BAC5.2]

That sounds like what happened to Matt's car with it's first motor.

[High PSI]

No, haven't checked the codes again since all this happened. I plan on doing it tonight with the other work I'll be doing (oil change and checking out the cam timing...more on that below).

I posted the last post from my parents place. Getting home from there last night, after the car sat in their driveway overnight at below freezing temperatures, was interesting. I expected that the car would run like crap until it warmed up, and then would act as it had on Saturday once warm (good up top, but like crap down low).

I jumped in the car to crank it, and it would crank over, but just wouldn't fire. It would seem to ALMOST fire immediately and then would just crank afterwards as if the plugs weren't connected. After a good hour of cranking and trying a few different things, with the throttle pedal to the floor, the car would start every other crank or so and idle at about 500rpm VERY roughly for 5 seconds, and then die. I finally got it to idle this way permanently by blipping the throttle to the pulse of the idle (if I just held it down or didn't touch it, it would die).

It then started to backfire every 5-10 seconds or so. Big, loud, explosive balls of fire shooting out my exhaust. (My neighbors must have been real happy I was home .) I idled the car long enough to get it up to operating temperature, and then it would idle roughly on its own without any throttle input.

After about 10 minutes of it idling like this, I got in the car and pinned the throttle. It stumbled, and then revved freely up to redline until I let off. I did this a couple times to about 4-5,000rpm (my friend who was behind the car noticed that the first few times it dumped out a TON of black smoke), and then it idled down to a normal idle. I took the car for a spin and noticed that below about 3,000rpm, the car just doesn't work. Above 3,00rpm, it drives decently, albeit with less power up top than it used to have.

I decided to risk it and drive the car home, as I need to have the car in my garage where I can tear it apart, as opposed to in my driveway, next to my toasted Eclipse GSX, where it might sit for two years as that car has. The drive home went OK....as long as I stayed above 3,000rpm, the car drove beautifully. The few times I came to a stop proved to be a challenge. Once the car was below 3,000rpm, it required a lot of playing with the throttle to get the car revved up (and it backfired a LOT in the mean time as well), and then, once at 3,000rpm, was fine, so long as it stayed there.

The sound is nearly gone, but now doesn't sound like a ticking or a knock....it just sounds like nuts and bolts rattling in a can. And now that it's quieter, I can pinpoint it a bit more, and it sounds like it's coming from the front timing belt area. Because of the way the car has no low-end power, is backfiring like crazy, and isn't smoking or anything, I'm thinking that my tensioner or idler went out on me (the sound I'm hearing), and the timing belt jumped a tooth or two. As I mentioned earlier, I'm going to try to pull the timing cover off tonight if I get a chance, hoping that will take care of it.

The only thing I don't get is why the temperature seems to affect it so much. When the car was in the garage, it started up and ran pretty decent off the bat. After being outside on a moderately cold night, it started but ran very rough for a good 5 min or so. And then after being outside on an EXTREMELY cold night, wouldn't start.

What happened with Matt's car? What was "Matt's" legacycentral handle? Was it Mtk by any chance?

[BAC5.2]

Matt was Legacy92EJ22T. His car ran like the poo-stink below a few thousand RPM, and seemed fine above that point. It was, simply, running on 3 cylinders.

Kind of unfortunate.

The timing belt in my Forester jumped like 3 teeth and it ran poorly, but not as badly as you are describing.

It sounds like you blew #3. Probably a ringland or something like that.

[High PSI]

If it was a ringland, wouldn't I get some smoke out the exhaust? And isn't ringland failure usually caused by detonation? I find it really hard to believe that I was getting much detonation with 93 Octane, a WRX TMIC using both inlets, extremely cold atmospheric temperatures as of late, and the stock turbo at 14psi. Then again, I did pull a knock sensor code out of the ECU, and I have what appears to be one of the "white" sensors that looks to be in good shape after a quick visual inspection.

[High PSI]

So, I pulled the timing covers off last night. As you know, there are three of them. First I pulled off the cover in front of the driver side cam gear. Everything looked good, except I saw what appeared to be metal shavings inside of the gear..and I thought - fantastic. I then pulled off the passenger side cam gear cover, and when I did, I heard something fall and hit the ground. I looked underneath the car and saw what appeared to a washer under the car. I picked it up and looked at it and was ECSTATIC to find that it was the outer cover of a bearing (i.e., the dark grey part in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Radi ... rs_120.png picture), and noticed that there was also a ball bearing and part of the bearing cage on the ground as well. I looked at my timing marks on the gears and also noticed that they were off by a few degrees of each other....PERFECT!

I pulled off the crank pulley and the final large plastic cover and found that the belt was extremely loose. It turns out that the idler with the gears on it to the bottom left of the driver side cam gear was toast. The entire bearing center COMPLETELY dissintegrated, so that the outer gear had dropped down and was "spinning" on the center hub (imagine a bicycle wheel having it's spokes blown out, and then the rim dropping down onto the hub).

I'm going to order a new belt and idler gear from Subaru this afternoon, and install it tomorrow or Thursday night, I'll do a compression test and let you know how things go. I'll also post up a pic of the idler gear so you can see how bad it is. It's actually pretty impressive.

The only small problem is...when I posted this in my initial thread...
"I can't afford (time wise) to pull the engine and rebuild it, so I'm thinking I might have to start looking for another car and start parting this one out. "
...I wasn't kidding. I bought one of my other dream cars, a 1990 Celica All Trac with a JDM 3rd gen 3SGTE swap (making about 280hp) on Saturday, and I pick it up in two weeks....so I'm kind of at a loss as to what I should do.

[BAC5.2]

Good that it's nothing big. Just fix it. It's easy enough, and should only take an hour or two to do it.

Funny, the exact same thing happened on my car (though it was my tensioner pulley) and it behaved NOTHING like yours did.

The tensioner was blown to smitherines, and it was so bad, the piston of the tensioner was demolished too (you could compress it with light finger pressure). The car still ran OK, it just overheated as the timing belt slipped across the water pump pulley, and made a lot of noise. It drove somewhat OK otherwise.

Cool Celica. Those are neat cars.

[High PSI]

Yeah, the Celica is pretty neat, especially with the WRC edition third-gen 3SGTE swap. The stock JDM engine has a bunch of stuff on it that isn't active but was installed for WRC homoligation purposes, such as a full blown anti-lag setup and water injection.

Anyway, I picked up the new belt and idler #2 (the cogged idler that is destroyed) from Subaru ($125 for both!!! ). The local Subie parts department near me actually sells quite a bit of stuff on the web, and they mentioned that idler #2 must go out pretty often, as they typically sell 3-4 a week.

Installed the belt and cog last night. The actual timing belt installation was cake...I spent most of the time putting on the 40 nuts that hold the plastic timing belt cover on.

Fired it up last night and it started up right away! Drove it to work this morning and it ran beautifully as always.

Thanks for the support as always guys.

[555BCTurbo]

Keep it!!!




Celica Alltracs are badass btw!

[yazmo]

Hvae you pulled the codes again after this happened?

hello i thinkg i have some sort of piston slap i heard it on cold start its just start today
and happen last year too.

your selling motor?

what you recommend me to know thw esxact problem and what to do to fix it

[High PSI]

Hvae you pulled the codes again after this happened?

hello i thinkg i have some sort of piston slap i heard it on cold start its just start today
and happen last year too.

your selling motor?

what you recommend me to know thw esxact problem and what to do to fix it

Thread from the dead! (Lol... I don't even have this car anymore, but I'll offer some help anyway...)

Yazmo - as it turns out in the end, my engine wasn't toast. It ended up being due to the bearing of an idler gear going out. The gear was making the noise, and the cam gear jumping teeth was making the car run like crap.

If you're only hearing it on "cold starts", it's most likely not piston slap, as piston slap is a permanent problem.

[ScottyS]

I once ran a timing belt bearing to destruction on an 200kmi+ N/A EJ22 just to see what would happen. Basically, I would get a light squeak every once in a while over a 3-4 month period, with the squeak slowly getting louder and more frequent. I figured that it had to be an exterior bearing given the sound, and sure enough it came apart one day 50ft from the driveway. There were ball bearings and pieces inside the timing cover and all that, with a small hole getting melted in the timing cover from when the sucker seized.

Running the motor when stuff like that happens is such a bad idea - just spend some time and diagnose it before trying to stress/break something more expensive.

We still DD that car, it's at 230k now. I'm seriously thinking about making it a turbo add-on project if I get time next year.

[Legacy777]

This is what happens when the idler gear craps out.

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... ddedtbelt/