pretty sure I am in limp mode. RESOLVED. many thankx

[N1446]

What are the most common causes of Limp Mode ?

this is a N/A 2.5 engine running on a 2.2T ECU. 5mt.
it has a stalling Idle when cold right after the first start and it will continue to start up and stall out in 5 sec. progressively until it warms up.

the idle problem goes away after and allows me to drive with an eggshell under the throttle, compensating for stall by depressing the clutch, and when slowly accelerating it still cuts out at - where boost would be if I had a turbo - i m pretty sure. . or is this flooding as a result for no turbo at boost ?

its hrowing code # 22> however, I dont want to throw down 150 for the knock sensor until I m sure its the reason u know ? The engine in the car now came from a car that raun flawlesly.

I can tease the car up to speed and It is drivable up to where boost would kick in i assume aka. limp mode, when the engine is warm.

[wtdash]

I was going to guess KS when I read your title, and the fact that it's throwing the code gives me more confidence. Pull the KS off the car and inspect the wiring and part for cracks. I suspect you'll find your answer.

I don't know what your options for used parts are there, but the 'white' colored connectors from '95/'96 EJ22 will work and are not prone to cracking like the earlier 'gray' models.

New KS are about $50-60 in the USA from online places like Autopartswarehouse.com.

GL,
Td

[Legacy777]

Can you elaborate a little more on how you're running a non-turbo 2.5 engine with 2.2t ECU.

[N1446]

I have an N/A EJ2.5D engine running on a 91 SS 2.2T ECU. 5mt. > Basically I removed the 22T engine , made slight harness modifications to plug-in the EJ25D.

I am aiming at a few reasons as to why it behaves the way it does.

missing or faulty sensors, fuel cut, spark cut, or flooding.

There are also codes stored in the ECU that will not clear.

This is the mess I am trying to sort out.



The engine Starts-Up, I have to play with the throttle to keep it idle.

On cold start it stalls out like its flooding after the fuel in the cylinders burns up - then immediately after the first attempt to start, if I try to start again it fails - no iginition, like flooding- I have to wait 5 sec. then try again and repeat this progressively until it warms up.

What I have done is take out the EJ22T that came with this 91 SS and drop in a replacement EJ25D. I know there is going to be confusion with the ECU to run it without a turbo and the ECU searching for boost and all else. I want to get it to run properly.

This is where I m at.

I Turn the key, engine fires up, runns great for several secconds cold, then just No. it isays no and dies. if i try to start immediately after the engine stops it only turns over, no start.
I wait for 5-ten seconds before trying again to start and it fires up the same. and fails.
I have do this until the engine is warm before it will maintain an idle even slightly, and at this point if i jab the throttle - the engine dies.

I assume it is flooding, or it is in limp mode.

The car allows me to drive up to speed with an eggshell under the throttle, depressing the pedal so slightly and accelerating . If i try to push past a certain point with the accelerator, the engine cuts out until i release the pedal to the point before it cut whatever - fuel spark ? this is what I trying to figure out. It smells rich. it cuts something out of the equation, fuel or spark i assume, right about where I would say boost would begin if i had a turbo.

I m not sure where to begin , is this flooding as a result for no turbo where the 22T ECU is fueling for boost ? Is the engine fueling for turbo with none present?

The engine cutting out from fuel-cut or whatever seems consistant with engine load and how far i have the accelerator pushed in.

[N1446]

this is not a DD BTW. project car.

[Legacy777]

Put in a JECS 92-94 non-turbo ECU. I think the EJ25 would run better on that ECU than it would on the turbo ECU. IMO, you're trying to fight a losing battle with the turbo ECU. You're trying to make something work that is clearly not meant to work.

[N1446]

i m willing to give that a try
it is considerably more exstensive/exspensive as far as the wiring goes from replacing the knock sensor forst ? or should it plug-in-stead of the turbo one i have now ??

i am also curious- do you think the ECU from my old 93 2.2LS Auto will do the same way as the JECS ?

appreciate the input-

- Mich

[Legacy777]

All the 92-94 non-turbo Legacies used the JECS ECU, so the one from your 93 should work fine.

The main difference between the non-turbo & turbo ECU's are that the cam & crank sensor pins are reversed. You should be able to pull those specific positive pins out and swap them. Swap B56 pin 1 with B58 pin 4, and vice versa.

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... _page1.jpg

[N1446]

This is great! I'll let you know how it goes this afternoon
Thank you Josh.

[N1446]

well, this is definately a start, I chaged out the ECU and wired everything up and now she runs beautiful, warms up properly and everything

i ll run the codes shortly..

Josh man this is sweet. with little effort this will be my winter car. apples and oranges to how nice it is compared to the other ecu.

if i had a dictionary of Josh in my back pocket I 'd do the dakar with this thing. seriously
thankyou.

[Legacy777]

Glad it worked out for you.

I'm not sure the difference in compression ratio between the 2.2 & 2.5. If the 2.5 has a higher compression ratio, you may want to run at the least mid-grade gas over 87. The ej22 ECU may not have the best timing curve, so just drive the car and see how it runs and keep an ear out for any detonation. It should be fine though.

Jason Grahn did this swap a couple years ago. I'm not sure if he had any problems.

http://www.bbs.legacycentral.org/viewto ... =5&t=15368

I'll see if I can get him to get the pictures working.


BTW, hows the power difference between the 2.2t and the 2.5?

[N1446]

as far as I can tell the power is very near in comparrison. I m using the 22t IAC and MAF so I m checking on code 42 and 49.

I will grab the IAC and MAF sensor from the 2.2 to satisfy the computer so I will know better this weekend.

[Legacy777]

Yeah, if you swap over the MAF you should be good. The IAC should be the same, but the non-turbo IAC would probably work better.

[N1446]

When I use the 91SS IAC and MAF I get codes 23 and 49., how ever the car runs in cripple mode, timing retard.

When I use the 98 IAC p/n 22650-AA033, and 91ss MAF I get code 23 aand 49 = same thing.

When I use the 98 IAC p/n 22650-AA033, and 92L MAF I get code 23 and it runns like dump.

When I use the 92 MAF and 92 IAC , p\n 22650-AA032 I get no CELs. so I m pretty sure all is good.

What bugs me is that i do get a CEL with p/n 22650-AA033, what is supposed to superceed 22650-AA032, as it is in nicer condition than the 92 IAC.

[Legacy777]

Take a resistance reading on the solenoid for the IAC valve between the 92 & 98. They should be similar. If they're not, that may be why you're getting a CEL.

According to the manual it should be about 9 ohms

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... C_Diag.zip

[N1446]

since my post last, I cleaned the IAC for the 92' and reseated a good gasket, - I cleared the ECU several times for good measure and on first starts, I have the engine running w/c idle oscillation from 750 to 2500 and the only code i have is 23. irregular MAF sensor signal.

I read on here that swaping the MAF wiring over from plastic to metal is not a big job, or does it make sense? otherwise ill shell out for a new/used plastic from the junk yard.

[Legacy777]

Have you checked all the wiring from the ECU to the MAF sensor to make sure it's good?

[N1446]

Yes, wiring is good, I grabbed another MAF from a forrester i put in the graveyard a while back and now there is no idle oscilation.

However, the idle is near 3k. always. I hav to keep my foot off the clutch slightly at stops and while shifting, so it doesnt zoom up to 3k in between gears.

No More CELS tho ! BAM.
Could this be cause of the EQL headers and cat-less exhaust ?

I guess now is simply adjusting the idle down to 750 -900 correct ? or maybe another dirty maf ?, I just threw it in there to check for a cel before taking it out.

honestly, It feels like how I had a dynojet-kit on my 92 Ninja c\w carbureators. It kept the idle up between shifts so the engine doesn't lose rpms, tho it idled normally.

The difference here is, the idle is near 3k consistantly from start-up until I shut it off.

-

Also, with green connectors connected I have now 51,52,33 and 42.
-
looking into..

33 Vehicle speed sensor Abnormal voltage input entered from vehicle speed sensor - Sets vehicle speed signal to a fixed value

42 Idle switch Abnormal voltage input entered from idle switch - Judges OFF operation

51 Inhibitor switch Abnormal signal entered from inhibitor switch - none

52 Parking switch Abnormal signal entered from parking switch - none

Josh FTR I appreciate you being so helpful !
It is very powerful even with a complete long-block in the trunk !
Now Its simply ironing out the kinks.

[Legacy777]

It sounds like the ECU thinks it's an AT. As I mentioned in my write-up the 92-94 JECS ecu's MT/AT identifier pin is wired backwards from how the turbo legacies & 90-91 ECU's are wired.
http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/swa ... l.html#ecu

Take a look at the MT/AT identifier pin going to the ECU. If there is no wire in that pin, try adding one, and then running it to a ground location. I'm going to guess that it should help your idle. It will also likely take care of the inibitor & parking switch codes.

The idle switch may also be an issue that's causing the high idle. Are you using the 2.5 or 2.2 throttle body & TPS? The newer throttle bodies used a 3-wire TPS, vs. our 4-wire TPS with idle switch. If you're running the 2.5 throttle body and can't use the 4-wire TPS, then you may be able to rig up a momentary switch or something that makes contact with the linkage to replace the stock idle switch.

You mentioned you had those codes with the green connectors connected. Do you have those same codes with just the black connectors connected?

You're welcome for the help.

[N1446]

You mentioned you had those codes with the green connectors connected. Do you have those same codes with just the black connectors connected?

- Iflash AOK with black connectors connected, CELS only with green connected.

The idle switch may also be an issue that's causing the high idle.

- ill try running the wire from the ECU first thing tomorrow, if still no dice then ill look at the idle switch. The '92 ECU is from an auto legacy L.

Are you using the 2.5 or 2.2 throttle body & TPS?

- I swapped the 2.2t throttle body and TPS onto the 2.5 Manifold

[N1446]

This morning I unplugged the ECU and sure enough there is no line comming from slot 20 on b48. I made a line and seated it into the connector and atteched it back up to the ECU and ran the wire to the battery ground.

still high idle at 3k, with no connectors connected and no CEL

plugged black connectors and flashing all clear

plugged in green and started the engine, now it idles at 3k, dives every 4 seconds or so about 5 times, then tries to idle at 1500 horribly, and throws code 24.

24 - Air control valve Air - control valve inoperative
(Abnormal signal produced in monitor circuit) Prevents abnormal engine speed using "fuel cut" in relation to engine speed, vehicle speed, and throttle sensor position

unattach the green connectors and back to 3k with no CELs.

[Legacy777]

Does your TB have a screw on the top of it like the one in the picture?

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subaru/images/TB/

If so, try adjusting the screw inwards (clockwise).

If not, does the idle change at all if you unplug the connector from the IAC valve? If it doesn't, you may have an issue with the wiring or the electro magnet portion of the valve. If the idle does change, you may want to check the TPS & idle switch.

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... sting1.jpg
http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... sting2.jpg
http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... sting3.jpg

[N1446]

I have the exact same throttle body as that, except mine is cleaner. J/k.

I have that upper screw in picture# 1 backed out all the way, rotated counter-clockwise entirely, so it doesnt even touchdown. I expected this to cause no-start/ no-idle as the throttle would be closed.

I assume that by screwing clockwise I will Increase the idle. I do not want to increase the idle.

If you are correct in saying turn the screw clockwise, I will as soon as I get in tonight and report back.

[Legacy777]

That screw is a bypass around the throttle plate. It only seemed to come on the earlier 90 MY's or so Legacies.

I had the exact same issue you had, high idle after cleaning the throttle body. The throttle body was calibrated to flow a certain amount of air with that needle valve opened so much. When cleaning the TB I allowed more air to go by the throttle plate, which raised the idle past the point where the IAC valve could control. I tested/tried everything to figure out the high idle, until I found that damn screw. I screwed it in nearly all the way, idle came back down and everything was fine.

You need to screw that screw down. Screwing clockwise will DECREASE idle. IMO, you should be able to pretty much completely screw in that screw all the way. My suggestion would be to screw it down so the idle is ok, then warm up the engine and keep screwing it down all the way and see if the idle changes. If it bogs a little bit, then back it out a turn or so.

If you have a laptop to run Vikash's scan tool software, you can view the ECU's duty % of the IAC (or if you have a meter to measure duty %). Then you can set the screw based on what the FSM says should be the IAC duty % range, which is:

25 - 40% for non-turbo
30 - 40% for turbo

[N1446]

ok, well I had the wrong idea here , I assumed the fast idle screw is the one you were talking about screwing clockwise. and not the fat screw in the pictures to the far right .

so of course i screwed the fast idle screw clockwise and the idle went to 3500.
-
That fat screw would barely go any further clockwise so it was at its lowest point already
-
I disconnected the IAC and the engine idle dropped to 2k, 1.5 2k
-
could it be because the MAF is from a 2.5 ? 98 subaru forrester ?
-
I definately think that scan tool is my next step. I ll grab the parts tonight and piece one together.