Timing belt & accessible seals, all at once?

[BoostedSubie]

I usually use sockets or anything I can find lying around in the garage that will match the diameter of the seal. I have used a oil filter socket once to put the rear main seal in. I'm not sure what the socket sizes were off the top of my head though. If I had to guess, 19-22mm on the cam seals, maybe bigger though. I had the oil pump off when I put the front crank seal in and I was able to push the thing in most of the way with my fingers, then just tapped it a couple times to get it to fully seat. I can check tomorrow what size of socket fits the best and get back to you.

[free5ty1e]

Gotcha! Ok this is kinda making more sense now. Actually since I have the seals now I should be able to find sockets that match, ill just bring the seals to the parts store.

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[Legacy777]

You can pick up a generic oil sealer puller at Northern tool or harbor freight for pretty cheap. They do work ok in getting the cam oil seals out. It works a lot better then screwdrivers.

As mentioned, you can use sockets to install the seals. Make sure not to drive the seals in too far.

[free5ty1e]

Well, I think I found something that should work for installing them; took the seals and matched exhaust adapters to them. Hoping I can use a rubber mallet and these adapters to install the seals. Still no experience doing this, hopefully it's not something I'll have to screw up once (or several times) in order to redo it correctly...



...as you can see from the photo (if, indeed, my guess here is correct and these work to correctly install the oil seals):
1 3/4" ID exhaust pipe adapter appears to match the oil seal 806733030
1 1/2" ID exhaust pipe adapter appears to match the oil seal 806732150

I am currently not sure which seal is the cam and which is the crank seal, although I'd venture a guess that the larger 1 3/4" size is the crank seal. I can count my seals later to confirm but it doesn't matter for this point.


...I'll go to Harbor Freight this week after work sometime and see if I can find the oil seal puller tool, thanks for the tip!

[Legacy777]

Just don't get too enthusiastic with installing the seals and those exhaust pieces should work. Just make sure the exhaust piece is squarely set on the seal so the rough edge of the exhaust piece doesn't booger up the seal.

[free5ty1e]

Good points. I think ill use my handy new files and smooth out the exhaust adapter edges before they touch my precious oem seals.

How far do they go in, anyway? If my old seals arent in right I may not be able to expect to use them as a guide before I take them off.

Timing kit is still a couple days away. Ill get that seal puller and hopefully have what I need to get it all started this weekend.

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[Legacy777]

The front part of the seals should more or less be flush with the front part of the metal collar around the seals. If they're 1-2 mm deeper then the front lip that's fine.

Take a look at these pics and you can see how deep the seals need to be installed.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... eadwork/17

[free5ty1e]

Aha! That last photo combined with your posts and this makes sense. Thanks Josh!

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[beatersubi]

Be aware of the sharp edge of the exhaust piece against the seal. It has the potential to do damage to the seal.
In the absence of a suitable socket to use as a driver, I've very carefully used a 1/4"-drive extension as a punch, with the female end against the seal. In most cases, I've been able to start the seal by hand and tap it in the rest of the way with the extension.

[free5ty1e]

Hmm that's good to know, thanks! I have a 1/4" drive extension, that is worth trying out.

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[free5ty1e]

So, tomorrow's the day I get started on the whole mess; the '92 has been pulled into the garage and parked for the big Timing Belt Extravaganza!

Found some good youtube reference videos, still nothing on the cam and crank seal replacements but I think I have an idea of what to do.

Still gotta go to Harbor Freight tomorrow and get a strap wrench to turn the crank pulley and line up the engine marks once the starter has broken the crank pulley bolt loose for me, along with one of their generic oil seal pullers. Subaru should have my oil pump O-ring in as well by now, hopefully they haven't forgotten about my latest special order - I can get that on Monday after work. If all goes well tomorrow maybe I'll need it by then! (yeah, right)

Just re-sealing the oil pump. If the tensioner is OEM and looks good, I may just reuse that instead of using the one that comes with the Gates timing kit. Or is it good too?

Looks like the idler pulleys have the black seals in the back and turn nice and easily. These are the double ball bearing updated versions right? Not the old single bearing ones that were prone to failure, right?

Also hopefully they didn't send me the wrong water pump, I would have no way to tell until I have them side by side... I've heard people have had issues receiving wrong pumps with a timing kit. My box's return address was Gates, Inc.... so maybe this one's correct.

Oh and hey BoostedSubie - I got that "anaerobic sealant" stuff from Napa, the same stuff you showed me in that photo (thank you). Just a heads up to anyone else thinking of doing this with the special sealant, you also apparently need "surface prep" or activator spray which is $20 a freakin' can! The anaerobic sealant was $13 too so this wasn't cheap. But I am prepared to use it. So the plan is to use the anaerobic sealant on the following surfaces, if I am correct (Please confirm or correct me):

• 1. Both sides of the thermostat / gasket / radiator hose elbow interface, spray the surface prep / activator on the water pump and elbow surfaces?
  2. Both sides of the water pump / gasket / engine block interface, spray the surface prep / activator on the water pump and engine block surfaces?
  3. Both sides of the oil pump / engine block interface (planning to re-seal the oil pump, good idea?), spray surface prep / activator on the engine block surface?
  4. Should I use the anaerobic sealant anywhere else?
  5. How about any other sealants? Black sealant for any purpose?

Also, anyone think there would be a problem using thread anti-seize on all bolts I put back into the engine block? So that would include:

• A. Water pump bolts
  B. Oil pump bolts
  C. Cam and crank pulley bolts (bad idea? Blue threadlocker for crank pulley bolt, can / should I use anti-seize AND blue threadlocker??)
  D. Tensioner bolts
  E. am I forgetting any that could benefit from thread anti-seize that I will be removing anyway here? I'd like to be thorough...

[Legacy777]

Just re-sealing the oil pump. If the tensioner is OEM and looks good, I may just reuse that instead of using the one that comes with the Gates timing kit. Or is it good too?

If the original looks good and isn't leaking, and you compress it very slowly, it should be ok to reuse.

Also hopefully they didn't send me the wrong water pump, I would have no way to tell until I have them side by side... I've heard people have had issues receiving wrong pumps with a timing kit. My box's return address was Gates, Inc.... so maybe this one's correct.

If you have an oil cooler there will be an extra port on the left side of the pump. If you don't have an oil cooler and happen to get one, you can just plug that extra port with a rubber nipple & clamp. Make sure the nipple is rated for pressure. The turbo pumps have the t-stat going in on the side, vs. the non-turbo's going in on the bottom. Here's a turbo water pump.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... P_4741.JPG

Oh and hey BoostedSubie - I got that "anaerobic sealant" stuff from Napa, the same stuff you showed me in that photo (thank you). Just a heads up to anyone else thinking of doing this with the special sealant, you also apparently need "surface prep" or activator spray which is $20 a freakin' can! The anaerobic sealant was $13 too so this wasn't cheap. But I am prepared to use it. So the plan is to use the anaerobic sealant on the following surfaces, if I am correct (Please confirm or correct me):

• 1. Both sides of the thermostat / gasket / radiator hose elbow interface, spray the surface prep / activator on the water pump and elbow surfaces?

The thermostat has a rubber o-ring on it. Do not use the sealent on it.

2. Both sides of the water pump / gasket / engine block interface, spray the surface prep / activator on the water pump and engine block surfaces?

The water pump should have a metal gasket. If it's used, you do not need any sealant.

3. Both sides of the oil pump / engine block interface (planning to re-seal the oil pump, good idea?), spray surface prep / activator on the engine block surface?

I prefer the RTV on the oil pump, but it should be fine to use on the pump & block.

4. Should I use the anaerobic sealant anywhere else?
5. How about any other sealants? Black sealant for any purpose?
[/list]

Also, anyone think there would be a problem using thread anti-seize on all bolts I put back into the engine block? So that would include:

• A. Water pump bolts
  B. Oil pump bolts
  C. Cam and crank pulley bolts (bad idea? Blue threadlocker for crank pulley bolt, can / should I use anti-seize AND blue threadlocker??)
  D. Tensioner bolts
  E. am I forgetting any that could benefit from thread anti-seize that I will be removing anyway here? I'd like to be thorough...

You can use a little bit of anti-seize on the water & oil pump bolts. Don't use anti-seize on the crank & cam bolts. You can use a little bit of anti-seize on the tensioner bolts as well. As I said, use a little bit, do not use a lot of anti-seize. Use blue thread locker on the crank pulley and torque that bolt appropriately, ~110 ft-lbs.

[free5ty1e]

Excellent, thanks Josh! My plan continues to get clearer.

For removal of my oil seals, I believe I will adopt this method involving a drill and a self-tapping screw that has been dulled.

I have also found that my exhaust pipe oil seal installer idea wasn't a total waste; a video of another DIY timing belt replacement operation on a different vehicle showed me a dude using some PVC piping of the appropriate size to install the seals. MUCH less dangerous than sharp exhaust piping! Gonna go to Lowe's and pick up some appropriate oil seal installers. Here is the video if anyone is interested. This video also shows the "taped screwdriver" method of extracting oil seals, which I may fall back on.

[beatersubi]

I haven't experienced it first hand, but I've heard of anti-seize becoming dried out and actually seizing to aluminum, but only aluminum. Again this is only rumor and was in reference to spark plugs in aluminum heads, but it's something to think about. Also, grey anti-seize absorbs moisture. Personally, I don't use it on bolts threading into aluminum. I just make sure the threads are clean and the bolts are properly torqued.
The taped screw driver is interesting, but I don't like prying against any moving part of the motor. Personally, I use small a dia wood screw to pull seals as they seem to get more 'bite' on the seal that a self-driller.
The PVC is a great idea for driving seals, I would definitely use that over exh tubing.

[free5ty1e]

Thats food for thought... did not know that about anti seize compounds. Hmm. Perhaps not worth using everywhere. Its on my spark plug threads too...ive always put it there since I learned spark plug replacement back on my Saturn.
Agreed on the taped screwdriver method, the first video above shows the drill and screw method I plan to use.

Thanks!

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[93Leg-c]

I had heard from an old-time mechanic that the copper-based anti-seize compound was better than the aluminum-based anti-seize compound so that's what I use. When I had a VW Bug with an air-cooled engine, I noticed that the aluminum-based one did get dry and cakey though the plugs never seized in the heads. When I used the copper-based one, the compound seemed to remain more "moist" and it was easier to remove the plugs.

On the other hand, in one ej22t engine in a TW that I was checking out, the spark plug in one of the cylinders was really stuck in there. The plugs in that engine were put in dry and I just didn't like the feel of them as I loosened them. It felt as if they were grinding away some of the aluminum in the heads. And the cylinder with the stuck plug had no washer between the plug and the head.

I always use a light coat of the copper anti-seize compound on the thread of the spark plugs before installing them. I've never had misfire nor any other problems.

[free5ty1e]

And....the operation has officially finally begun!

As of now, the belts and ac tensioner are off, the coolant is drained, and the car is up on jackstands. Next up for tomorrow (later today) is removing the fans and breaking the crank bolt loose with the starter and breaking the cam bolts loose with 5th gear and my breaker bar.

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[free5ty1e]

lol... and wasn't until today that I was able to get to the next steps. Found out that two of my passenger-side fan's bolts were sheared off at one point in the past that I was not aware of, so I'll need to learn how to use my easy-out. And probably go invest in a shorty drill so I can actually fit in where I need to be. I utilized PB penetrating blaster every step along the way and waited a couple minutes between spraydown and bolt removal so I believe that helped me not shear more than 1 bolt so far...


Got my crank pulley bolt whacked loose with my starter + a breaker bar / cheater pipe combo resting against my driver's side body under the A/C hardline. Behold, for after I again went out to my '94 and started it up to observe once more that our engines do indeed rotate the crank pulley and belts in a clockwise direction I got the confidence to attempt this:



Worked like a charm, or so far as I can tell -- this IS the proper length for the crank pulley bolt, isn't it?


... You don't see any sheared bolt remains in the hole either, right?



So, assuming all is still well and moving on... I got my timing cover off -- both the end covers have the top bolt cracked right off, gonna check and see how much Subaru wants for fresh replacement parts... at the very least I need a fresh timing cover gasket (did NOT know there was a timing cover gasket too!)


I also managed to get my hands on a can of the copper-based anti-seize compound, and I plan to give all the bolts and such a nice bath in brake cleaner before reassembly so they'll be nice and clean.

So, then I hit a snag in my plans... my plans to use 5th gear and a friend standing on the brakes in order to allow me to crack the camshaft pulley bolts loose. However, I then realized that my '92 was indeed an autotragic! Ugh. So, I got to thinkin', and with my cheater pipe I can certainly reach the drivers' side framerail with my breaker bar and cheater pipe combo - even from the passenger side cam. Would this be a terrible, horrible idea and --- why?


^^^ .....no?


Are our camshaft pulley bolts reverse-threaded? That'd be my only concern with attempting to utilize the starter in the same way as I did above to break the crankshaft pulley bolt loose.... right? What's the DIY tip of the day for cracking loose the camshaft pulley bolts on an automatic car before I remove the old timing belt so I can replace the cam seals too while I'm in there? Any advice / experience to share?


On another topic:
Over the course of the week, I've also been experimenting with spray paint on various components under this beater's hood. So far I've painted the accessory belt covers, the a/c tensioner bracket, the nonturbo "MPFI" plastic engine cover that I found at the junkyard, and my coolant overflow bottle just to learn more about painting (never really messed with it so gotta start somewhere. I didn't end up with high-temp paint at first so I'm kinda concerned that some of it may burn off or something but it shouldn't fail catastrophically under the hood.... or will it?

[rallyak]

The cam bolts are right handed threads.
I just changed all my cam seals today but I replaced my cams with 220 delta cams. I'm not sure if the t-belt will hold the sprocket from slipping.
One trick that I've used to remove those bolt without an impact is, I used a screwdriver and placed it thru the sprocket and held it on one of the bolts that holds the plastic cover to the head with the timing belt still on and flywheel locked. I'm not sure those bolts will hold by them self, and to lock the flywheel I put a narrow flat tip in a hole on the right side of the engine.

[free5ty1e]

The cam bolts are right handed threads.

Ah, thank you! (that appears to mean that they are standard thread and will loosen the same way as the crank pulley bolt)

Hmm, it is sounding like I'll have to locate that flywheel access hole to jam a screwdriver in... actually come to think of it, I have no earthly idea how I'm going to torque the crank and cam bolts back down without this method now that I've remembered that this car does not have a 5th gear to select and hold with the brakes.

Rats.

Still quite confused on exactly where this access hole to the flywheel teeth actually is, but I've got some descriptions earlier in this thread IIRC that I can read a couple times and then go hunting under the hood.

However, my question still stands -- since the cam pulley bolts are threaded the same normal way like the crank bolt, is there any reason I shouldn't break the cam bolts loose with the starter using the same method as above...?

I really need to get a compressor and accessories again so I can make use of my air impact drill.... which I still need to find and unpack. That would really come in handy about now...

[beatersubi]

It's hard to say weather the timing belt will hold the cam pulleys. If you're doing valve cover gaskets also, you could pull the valve covers and put a wrench on the hex thats on each cam.
But you're still going to have to locate the flywheel access to torque everything, as you said. The best I can describe, its between the PCV hose on the block and the throttle body if you're look straight down from the top of the engine.

[free5ty1e]

It's hard to say weather the timing belt will hold the cam pulleys. If you're doing valve cover gaskets also, you could pull the valve covers and put a wrench on the hex thats on each cam.
But you're still going to have to locate the flywheel access to torque everything, as you said. The best I can describe, its between the PCV hose on the block and the throttle body if you're look straight down from the top of the engine.

Ah! Rallyak mentioned the timing belt's holding force being the concern there too, I just apparently read right over it.

Hmm... but you bring to light something awesome, since I am indeed doing valve cover gaskets at the same time I can just lock the cams that way! I suppose my next step should be to remove the covers, I hadn't done that yet since I had no idea they would bring any benefits to the timing belt operation being off

I'll still find that flywheel access and jam a screwdriver in there anyway as I'll need to for the re-torquing. And get photos once I get it figured out.

Thanks guys!

[beatersubi]

All of this is much easier with the radiator out, as well. If you're going to be pulling it anyway to repair the fan shroud mount, might as well get it out of the way. Its easy enough (two bolts, two connecters and four hoses), and if you catch the coolant in a clean container, it can go right back in when everything's back together.

[free5ty1e]

I'll still find that flywheel access and jam a screwdriver in there anyway as I'll need to for the re-torquing. And get photos once I get it figured out.

....ugh... I mean flex plate. I hate automatics.

I'll see if maybe someone else on the board has posted a photo showing where I might find the flexplate access hole on a 4EAT. In the meantime though, today is the Portland Retro Gaming Expo's last day and I haven't been yet. So I'm going!

[rallyak]

Here's the hole that I'm referring to.

or you can use this one.