*update* 11.5 @ 117MPH RS Liberty

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:51 am

I'm not trying to push autos on anyone and I think ciper's just trying to defend himself against all the auto haters.

Most racecars today don't have clutches and have shifters on the steering wheel - more like an automatic in function than a manual even if it mechanically is an electro-hydraulically actuated manual.

Being well-practiced in driving both I generally greatly prefer a manual, but there are tricks you learn with an auto (almost out of necessity) that help greatly even when driving a manual. I learned left-foot braking in an auto, though I also can use my right foot to operate both brake and gas at the same time for balance (only good for mid-range speeds as you can't get full throttle or brake out of it like left foot braking). I learned that with my manual.

Steve

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:07 am

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:09 am

Forget it
No point to continue this. A few of you get it, the rest can go to your grave never knowing the truth.

I too was once a manual transmission zombee. Drop your ego for a moment and learn something new.
Guess everyone has to learn for themselves, and since the stigma is so strong many of you will never take the chance.
Too bad for you.

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:12 am

The issue between autos and manual trannys comes down to one factor, automatic transmissions are responsive in nature, in that they react to the given situation and perform an appropriate action. Manual trannys controlled by the driver are intuitive in that an action can be done prior to an event occuring.

ie: with a manual tranny you can downshift to an appropriate gear to exit a corner in even before you are in the corner... sure you might be able to force an auto tranny to do that but very few will rev-match for you. Now try doing that at threshold braking and the auto is easily at a disadvantage, same goes for corner exits... you can use an appropriate gear to exit a corner without having to worry about the tranny shifting on its own, if you are at a the edge of lateral grip on your tires your screwed if your tranny shifts on you... then there is all the tricks of using your rev limiter as a way to power through corners... not gonna happen with an automatic tranny so easily.

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:20 am

It can still happen though. I drove my old 74 nova auto like it was a manual at times.

Not that it was necisarrily good for the car, but you get my point. I think eventually the manumatics will be the wave of the future. The speed of an auto with the joy of the manual minus the clutch. Losing the clutch will kill some of the fun for me.

I was watching car and driver last night and they were test drivint a car...audi, or something, and it had a manumatic. It had two clutches, one for 1,3,5 and one for 2,4,6. It would switch between them and make shifting faster and seemless in the auto transmission. Pretty slick setup.

I drive a manual simply because I enjoy the experience more.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:06 am

evolutionmovement wrote:Automatics are better for drag racing.

Period.

Stock for stock, I could see how a manual could outrun an auto. Gear advantage, torque band launch, shorter shift times (average high speed manual trans shift is about .25 seconds while a stock auto will shift in about .5 seconds).

But an Auto designed for drag racing, there's not a contest. High stall torque converter, proper gearing, fast shifts, on-boost launches. Nothing can beat it.

I feel that Manual's are still the better all around transmission. Why? Well, for one thing there is actually contact between the engine and the transmission. In an auto, the torque converter is the weak link. You can only put down as much power as the fluid can hold before shearing. This can be designed out with a drag-tranny. For the ultimate all-around tranny, an auto just won't cut it IMO.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:27 am

Uh, torque converters can lock up and carry enormous torque directly from the engine to the transmission.

Noodles · Post by **Noodles** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:45 am

I retract my previous posts. i think this just bout sums it up...
I can see the merits of an auto but my personal choice would be a manual.
(sorry bout the multiple posts. got a little bit worked up & kept thinkin of new stuff

)
and yes there are certain things which you learn in an auto which are extremely valuable and useful in a manual (left foot braking then progressing to heel & toe)
thanks to ciper for trying to broaden our narrow minds

this is what forums are for. thankyou.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:52 am

In a stock automatic, there is no mechanical linkage between the engine and transmission. The coupling is fluid. You can only put out what the fluid can hold before shearing. As the fluid heats up, it gets thinner and more prone to shearing. Even when locked up, it's still a fluid coupling. This doesn't go for all transmissions, but for most that's the case. Some have a lockup clutch which acts just like the clutch in a manual.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:24 am

BAC5.2 - Almost all modern torque converters have a lockup clutch. I can't off the top of my head think of an example of an automatic car you can buy today that doesn't.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:36 am

Then I must be misinformed. I was under the impression that the torque converter simply continues pumping fluid to produce a fluid lock rather than an actual mating surface lock.

Thanks for the heads up.

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:34 pm

manumatics are already here, and they've proven their abilities in motorsports (touring car, rally, f1)... but the fact remains it must be a driver controlled device.

the wrc impreza can completely shift gears 10x per second, and the audi system "DSG" has a negligable shift time... i agree clutches are still fun, i still wish manumatics were not allowed in WRC

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:55 pm

I think Manumatic refers to the "triptronic" and it's lame ass off-shoots. All a manumatic does is control when the transmission sucks.

Sequential boxes are what you are thinking of. STi rally car will shift from 1st to 6th before a standard Impreza can make the 1-2 shift. The WRC tranny is nitrogen powered, which is basically, air shifting. F1 uses similar technology, sequential boxes. SCCA Pro-Rally cars almost all have dogboxes, I can't think of any sequential boxes out there now.

The DSG is awesome though, definately a step in the right direction with the elimination of the torque converter.

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:53 am

an auto box in a subaru is stronger than a manual box, i am a fence sitter in this subject, i have nothing against either type of tranny, for street/racetrack other than drags i think personnaly that i would prefer a manual, if i was going to build my car purely for straight line drags i would go auto.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:38 am

rsstiboy wrote:an auto box in a subaru is stronger than a manual box, i am a fence sitter in this subject, i have nothing against either type of tranny, for street/racetrack other than drags i think personnaly that i would prefer a manual, if i was going to build my car purely for straight line drags i would go auto.

I feel the same way. I prefer manual to drive daily because it's just more fun to row my own boat. Plus, the shifter looks cooler than an automatic.

NICO · Post by **NICO** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:52 am

looks like my car chained 2 a wall

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:12 am

Start a pic thread Nico!

NICO · Post by **NICO** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:39 am

when it is done for sure i got to piant the rims and piant the car then find a mean location.

omg that video is crazy. that car look nuts all that smoke, it makes me what to go rev my car what mad ness i get from seeing that.

teaguespeed · Post by **teaguespeed** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:35 am

about the original post....

that car looks tight, i love the painted pillars.

why the hell is it front wheel drive??

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:13 am

less drivetrain power loss, my car smokes like that in AWD, front just lifts up too far off the ground

NICO · Post by **NICO** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:31 pm

same hear i can spin all 4 tires in 1st gear and chirp in second. i cant wiat to drive agian that pic makes me lose my shirt

its front and awd he put a switch on the fuse under the hood but its only used for service not for drag racing o well u got to do what u got to do.

rsstiboy · Post by **rsstiboy** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:42 pm

he did it so he can swith to 2wd after the launch

*update* EVADE ran his RS again last night and got a 11.5@116MPH!!!

Bosco · Post by **Bosco** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:00 am

Just Wondering... I thought if you put a switch on the FWD fuse, that it was a "NO NO" to switch it over outside of park.

Or is that just if you're paranoid?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:10 am

'Finished with my woman 'cause she couldn't help me with my mind...'

Steve

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:38 pm

NICO I WRX U wrote:same hear i can spin all 4 tires in 1st gear and chirp in second. i cant wiat to drive agian that pic makes me lose my shirt

its front and awd he put a switch on the fuse under the hood but its only used for service not for drag racing o well u got to do what u got to do.

I can do that in the rain . . .

What kinda tires do you have on your car? Also do you just drop the clutch in first? I'm sure I could break all 4 tires loose if I dropped the hammer, but equally as likely is dropping the tranny!!

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update 11.5 @ 117MPH RS Liberty