C.E.S. Racing TBE

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:31 am

Went driving last night with Subarujunkie and Thawa and wanted to share some comments.

Brian (SubaruJunkie) made some good comments about the sound of the exhaust.

We took the freeway for a ways and before we exited I decided to pass Brian and take the lead since I knew of some side roads we should take. I floored it by him on the freeway and passed him going at least 15 mph faster than he was going. AFter we did our little excursion and pulled over for a rest, he made his comments that bascially went like this:

He couldn't hear me at all coming up on him until my car was basically right on him. At that point he heard it and said it sounded soooooooo sweet. (That was while I was flooring it on the freeway) On the twisty road, he said he was listening closely to hear my car and couldn't really hear it until I accelerated through the corners and whenever I did do that he just loved the sound it made. He even tried to mimick the subaru burble he heard coming from my car, but I'm really glad my car doesn't sound like his imitation

j/k Brian, it was a valiant effort. haha

So there you go Jeff, a shameless plug for CES. Thanks for providing such a great system.

stillkckn · Post by **stillkckn** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:17 pm

Thanks to all who've said good things about the CES systems. Though I'm glad it's not my day job, I'm also happy to bring such a great product into the hands (or onto the cars) of such deserving folks.

Yeah, and you gotta love that sound.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:23 pm

I recently installed my CES kit.

I didn't run into ANY problems with the new kit, just the stock one being a dick.

Oddly enough, I kinda wish I didn't have a resonator. Just a straight pipe from the turbo to the muffler. The kit sounds AWESOME though.

One thing I noticed, is that the kit sounds different on the 2 cars I've heard it on. Matt's is a bit more flow-y than mine is, whereas mine burbles a lot. I also backfire a good bit, where Matt rarely does.

kleinkid · Post by **kleinkid** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:23 pm

I may have heard a slight backfire once, so at most it is rare on my car. Do you hear that whistling/hissing sound(I like it) when you shift? I feel that the turbo sounds better and certainly operates better now. A boost gage would really help monitor turbo performance accurately at this point I presume. I need to work on that next.

stillkckn · Post by **stillkckn** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:46 am

Klienkid:

Suggest you check all the turbo bolts, just in case things might have loosened up, and that accounts for the hissing. I believe that the torque should be 35 ft/lbs.

BAC5.2:

Was it something you ate?

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:07 am

I don't hear any hissing. My turbo and DV are a lot quieter than Matts, but my exhaust is a lot more "burbly" than his.

I do eat Chipotle a good bit, maybe that's why...

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:52 am

I can hear my turbo go whoosh when it is spooled up. I can hear a little whistle when it is cold, but once it warms up I don't hear it anymore.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:33 am

That's probably due to your lack of a gasket.

Matt sounds like he's got a boost leak, since there is an extremely loud CSSSHHH that sounds like a good bit of air flowing through a large hole. Mine is a nice an quick (comparatively) PSHT that sounds like a good bit of air flowing through a properly sized hole. I also can hear my turbo whine, but it's not as loud as Matt's, at the same boost.

My car sounds REALLY different than Matts, and performs really differently as well.

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:44 pm

Yeah I'm thinking of pulling that thing off an putting a gasket in there. I guess Trever was asked about it and he said that he felt it SHOULD be ok except that he was worried about the leangth of the BEP splitter dimensions being off without the gasket. I haven't seemed to have a problem with it.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:08 pm

I ghetto rigged the SHIT out of my bep, lol. I just massaged it with a hammer and a hand file since I couldn't find my dremel. I couldn't see or feel what was keeping the thing from sliding in, so I just tapped with a hammer to see where marks were, then filed the marks smooth and continued to do that.

georryan · Post by **georryan** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:49 pm

Dang. That must've taken forever. If you took off reletively as much as I did that would be a pain. I was careful not to bend mine since I wanted it as a gasket.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:30 pm

Didn't take THAT long. Took me maybe an hour (long enough that my buddy could redo his intake). Once the BEP was taken care of, it only took about 30 minutes to get the rest of the exhaust on.

stillkckn · Post by **stillkckn** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:02 pm

There are officially six different BEP's, plus a DIY model, each of them intended for a different Turbo. All new BEP's will be stamped with a code (one thru six, at the moment) to indicate which version it is. It is not just the extension of the baffle that changes, but also it's length and its orientation around the exhaust hole. We have shipped more than one, when in doubt. The DIY version comes with a large baffle that is not welded to the plate, for those with time, more than a few tools, and in search of the perfect fit.

Aust. Delivery Liberty, similar to VF 28 (1)
1997 -> 2004 WRX, STi. ALL THE SAME (2)
Legacy, US WRX & US STi

1999 -> 2000 STi . VF22-23, VF 28 (3)
2001 STi Au (4)
2003 STi Au (5)
2004 STi Au (6)

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:11 pm

Ahh, cool. That should make it easier when there are a bunch layin' around to tell them apart.

Has Trevor ever made a BEP for the 93-96 STI's? I'm asking because I'm getting a Deadbolt Monster 16G (should be delivered today

) which is the same turbo as those years of STI. That or if Trevor knows which of the six mentioned above that he uses on those years of STI? I can't TIG weld so the DIY is out.

free5ty1e · Post by **free5ty1e** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:03 pm

How much for just the flange and gasket for the shape pictured below?

I am assuming this is the proper shape for the IHI RHB5 VF-11 exhaust. I plan to DIMS.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:24 pm

Looks like the VF-12 BEP to me. The gasket is the stock turbo gasket from the dealer. $21 ish retail from the parts counter. I reused my old one.

free5ty1e · Post by **free5ty1e** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:53 pm

hmm... and we're still not sure which model Legacies came with the VF-11 as opposed to the VF-10. I haven't taken a good look at my turbo yet to determine which I have. Are the VF-11 and VF-10 boost enhancement plates different?

Would the BEP itself be sufficient to begin creating an exhaust system with, or do I need a BEP and a matching flange? The piping I can take care of from there...

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:37 pm

The Vf10 and the VF11 have identicle exhaust tubine housings. The turbine wheels are just different. They will have the same BEP. The BEP that you have pictured above is from my pictures right? If so that is the #1 BEP for the VF12. It will work but it needs ground/filed a bit. The #2 BEP will work without any modifications. I believe that the CES systems for the USDM 91-94 Legacy turbos will now all come with the #2 BEP instead of the #1. Jeff can deny or confirm that. IIRC a BEP alone will run $75-80 but I'm not sure if that figure is correct.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:39 pm

Oh and yes you'll need a flange that matches the turbos bolt pattern to make your own DP.

free5ty1e · Post by **free5ty1e** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:04 pm

Well after some exhaustive searching (oh god damn it I didn't mean to make that lame pun) I found a shop that's willing to fab a full 3" turboback exhaust for $330, including flange/dp. Had to go with press-bent instead of mandrel bent to save a few hundred bucks on labor (this car is being done on a budget), doesnt look anywhere near as bad as the old crush-bent style, should be good enough for what I want it for

Gonna use the stock muffler for now, just so I can get the TBE on first... then I can find an appropriate muffler or glasspack at my convenience. I'm just stoked I don't have to pay the $500-$600 everyone else was quoting me around town, and that didn't include the flange! Just takes some persistance.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:56 am

Hack apart your stock downpipe, bore out the stock flange.

The BEP won't do you any good if you don't have a divorced wastegate dump like the CES does.

Get a GOOD shop to bend you a 4" bellmouth downpipe and have the cheap shop get your pipes until you can afford mandrel.

Mandrel is the way to go.

free5ty1e · Post by **free5ty1e** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:57 pm

Well, I was considering having this shop do the divorced wastegate dump, he said he could do it for around $80 extra including creating the new hole in the stock flange, but he didn't think it'd be worth it. I can see how there'd be turbulence when the wastegate's open (at max set boost, for example), pissing the turbine wheel off. Would it be worth it to do this, you think?

Does the BEP face into the turbine housing, completely separating the turbine exit from the wastegate exit? I wouldn't have one of these for this job, as I still haven't heard back from CES racing. I could probably ask this guy to go ahead and do the same thing though. It does seem as though that would really smooth out the flow...

And when you say 4" bellmouth downpipe... please 'splain? 4" turbo mouth, tapers down to 3" by the end of the pipe? This shop was the only one willing to work at all with my stock flange, but they said the largest pipe they have access to is a 3". Where would I even find the bellmouth shape material? 4" doesnt even seem like it would fit on the turbine flange.

I've got a day or two before I decide to go ahead and do this....

Maybe a compromise can be a mandrel-bent 3" downpipe, with the rest of the exhaust press-bent for now. I doubt I'll be able to find anyone to make me a bellmouth 4" downpipe around here to tell you the truth. At least not without doubling the cost of this project. All the other exhaust shops wanted at least $500 - $600 to do this, and I still had to get my hands on the turbine flange, and it was press-bent! One shop said they could fab a downpipe for $250 but they're really far away, and they still didn't know about the divorced wastegate...

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:39 pm

The thing I'd be worried about with their 3" limit is having a super (or more than necessary) restrictive exhaust. 3" is the size of the turbine outlet on the CES exhaust.

A bell mouth pipe is basically an oval shaped pipe that covers the WHOLE hot side of the turbo. Picture a CES exhaust, only with all of that being one pipe, just a bigass oval shape that tapers down to 3" at the end.

A bellmouth pipe is the MINIMUM you should accept for a downpipe.

The BEP faces IN on the turbo, completely seperating the turbine exhaust and the wastegate exhaust until after the main bend. Divorced wastegate is a really good idea, as it negates turbulance until after the most difficult bend in the exhaust.

free5ty1e · Post by **free5ty1e** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:22 pm

Right. But with a 3" mandrel-bent downpipe with the divorced wastegate, along with a curved plate to completely separate the two air flows, I don't have to go searching for a 4" bellmouth, which I don't think will be possible to find here. The guy at the shop will open the flange to 3" for the turbine and open a separate hole for the wastegate, so it should work out to be just about as good.

Then with a flange connecting to the rest of the exhaust, which will be press-bent for price considerations at this point in time, I can always replace that portion of the exhaust later should I deem it necessary. The important thing is that I'll have the downpipe with divorced wastegate done and done properly, and I won't have to finance it

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:06 pm

Meh, I wouldn't hack together an exhaust, but that's just me.

Make sure they use GOOD materials and don't bobo the welds like a LOT of shops do.

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C.E.S. Racing TBE

Thanks for the comments