Stock EJ22T vs Modded EJ22 vs Stock EJ25

[Brat4by4]

Check out a little comparison I worked up about a week ago. I ran 2 dyno graphs we had posted and used AutoCAD to trace, stretch, and plot them on the same graph. I was only limited in accuracy by the resolution of the original jpg's. There was no altering or fudging performed at all. I have all the work I did saved.



This is what you are looking at... Yellow/Cyan = EJ22T Sport Sedan, Green/Blue = AWD EJ22 NA.

Power Mod list for NA:
modified stock air box w/ paper filter (snorkel removed and added intake tube)
MSD Dis 2 ignition w/ diamond coil pack
magnacor 8.5mm wires (running stock ngk plugs)
HO alternator
1992 legacy balance & blue printed injectors
N1 aluminum pulley set
Exedy LW flywheel
MRT axle back muffler

Semi-power mods: (unleashers per se)
sti motor mounts
st trans mount
TB coolant bypass mod
extra earthing grounds from battery to chassis and starter
extra 12v lead from alternator to battery
Optima yellow top battery


Power Mod list for EJ22T:
Absolutely freakin nothing.

Power Leeches:
Original Exhaust with 116,000 miles -->
Extra back pressure (torque peak is a couple hundred RPM late)


Notes: Graph starts where it does because that is where the NA dyno graph started. And if you want a percentile comparison, from the start of the NA graph to the end of the Turbo graph.... the turbo has 11% more area under the torque curve.

[Legacy777]

Do you have the original EJ22T graph? I know I have the original of the EJ22

[evolutionmovement]

I always thought Subaru underrated the EJ22 N/A and this seems to prove it out. Considering a conservative 20% drivetrain loss, that gives over 150 HP with minor mods.

Steve

[THAWA]

I dont believe that's the case steve. The difference between the two graphs is about the same as the difference between the rated numbers. I think they rated it right, it's just the gearing and flat ass torque band that makes the difference.

[scottzg]

how is a HO alternator a hp ADDER?

Yup, that looks about like it should.

Hmm, with a avg 11% more power, i bet a na base model automatic sedan is faster than a turbo wagon. There's a 15% difference in curb weight between the 2. Thats assuming joshes mods on the na.

Do drivetrain mods show up on dynos?

[BAC5.2]

Scott - Yes, drivetrain mods will show up on a dyno.

A lightweight flywheel and lightweight driveshaft, with Group N engine mounts, and perhaps a stickier clutch, would all translate to the ease of power application.

I need to get my car on the dyno ASAP so I can start bragging

[evolutionmovement]

I think both cars were underrated, Hardy, it's just that I have more experience with the N/A up against other cars that supposedly have more power.

Steve

[BAC5.2]

I think both cars were underrated, Hardy, it's just that I have more experience with the N/A up against other cars that supposedly have more power.

Steve

Not at 8:1

[Brat4by4]

how is a HO alternator a hp ADDER?

Yup, that looks about like it should.

Hmm, with a avg 11% more power, i bet a na base model automatic sedan is faster than a turbo wagon. There's a 15% difference in curb weight between the 2. Thats assuming joshes mods on the na.

Do drivetrain mods show up on dynos?

Maybe the alternator should have went under semi-power, but the last time I checked the engine runs off electricity... especially to the spark plugs.

Remember we aren't comparing the same thing here, guys. The NA has MSD ignition and exhaust work along with all the other stuff. I wouldn't call that light mods since retail on just the Ignition, Flywheel, exhaust, and pulleys is well over $1000. And the turbo STILL puts out over 20 WHEEL lb/ft more (the difference is significant down to 3k rpm).

Notice that even after 5252 rpm the turbo has numerically more torque than the NA is putting down in HP until nearly 6000 rpm. What does that mean? If both cars are lined up and going through the RPM range the NA is getting spanked. What more can you do to the NA by the way to make it even faster?? Remember if you so much as touch the turbo with any power making mod then the numbers will jump up significantly, even replacing the stock cars clogged cats would have changed the numbers very noticeably over the entire graph...

[Brat4by4]

I dont believe that's the case steve. The difference between the two graphs is about the same as the difference between the rated numbers. I think they rated it right, it's just the gearing and flat ass torque band that makes the difference.

If the difference is the same between the rated numbers then that is sad, because of the NA's mods. Subaru and some Japanese manufacturers do under-rate the mess out of their cars.

Considering a conservative 20% drivetrain loss, that gives over 150 HP with minor mods.

That also puts a stock turbo at over 180 hp with same conservative loss.

And yes, if you put all these mods on the lighest base model NA and try to race the biggest heaviest turbo with a slushbox... it will be closer. The point is for people who think that a healthy NA is just as fast as a healthy EJ22T. This pretty much thoroughly disproves this because a quite modified NA still gets out gunned by quite large wheel numbers on a dyno.

[vrg3]

Whose car is the turbo? What dyno was it on?

[Brat4by4]

You can search for it, its still on the board somewhere. I can't think of the screen name off hand. They were both done on Mustang dynos (read: conservative, others would read higher) with both being at similar elevations depending where you are in each city.

[vrg3]

Ah, okay, found it (I think):

Josh's modded non-turbo: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=18270
dscoobydoo's stock turbo: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?p=67243

[Legacy777]

I was going to say if both dyno's weren't the same about the only thing worth comparing would be the shape of the curves, and not the numbers.

They still may be off slightly compared if you did both at the same dyno, but it's a pretty good representation.

[professor]

The other conclusion to draw here is that the $1000 worth of mods to the NA didn't amount to a hill of beans.

You would probably make a bigger improvement in 1/4 mile times by fitting worn-out low profile autocross rubber onto the stock 14" wheels... instant gear ratio change. Not saying you'd want to drive around like that, however.

[Legacy777]

The other conclusion to draw here is that the $1000 worth of mods to the NA didn't amount to a hill of beans.

You would probably make a bigger improvement in 1/4 mile times by fitting worn-out low profile autocross rubber onto the stock 14" wheels... instant gear ratio change. Not saying you'd want to drive around like that, however.

I don't think you can say that. Everyone or at least I'm quite aware that doing any sort of modifications on a n/a engine is practically futile to get any good amounts of power.

Out of those mods, the only two I can say I did to get more power was the LW flywheel and pullies. Everything else was to replace old worn parts, and improve the overall running of the car.

[dscoobydoo]

I also have the dyno for the 01 RS with the NA 2.5 I would be curious to put that in there too. That would give an interesting comparison to the newer legacies with the 2.5's in them. That way you could compare the 2.2, 2.2t and the 2.5 .

Just say the word.

d

[THAWA]

The point is for people who think that a healthy NA is just as fast as a healthy EJ22T. This pretty much thoroughly disproves this because a quite modified NA still gets out gunned by quite large wheel numbers on a dyno.

I assume that was from one of the earlier discussions. Yes the turbo has more torque and more horse power, I wasn't denying that. What I was saying before was that an na can KEEP UP, it isnt as fast but can keep up with a turbo. That's because the difference isn't really that much and the final drive ratio is higher on an NA than a turbo.

[BAC5.2]

Hardy - The higher final drive is a blessing and a curse, though, isn't it?

I mean, the higher final drive would help it while IN gear, but you've gotta shift a lot sooner, and those shifts slow you down a bit, while a Turbo can just truck it out with the longer gears and more power. They might keep up, until it's time to shift. Then it's all over.

[THAWA]

actually it's quite the opposite, least in my case. When I was 4eat the shifts would come just a touch later than the 5mt turbo. I don't think it was the gear ratios on that that slowed me down. But at about 40-50 it would pull, and at 70-80 it was a car or two ahead. With the 5mt, it shifts quicker and it seems to pull just a hairin the next gear but then the turbo shifts and pulls back, but by then it's going faster anyway. Turbo seems to pull about the same mph-wise now as a 5mt though. It's a curse on the highway and gas mileage

[Legacy777]

I've got the same gearing as the turbo....so that's not really the case with mine.

i don't have a very good un-bias'd opinion because I went from fwd to awd, and there's really no way to tell how much power went away for that, not to mention what I picked up from the lw flywheel, etc......

[THAWA]

yeah ironicially, your car is probably slower now than other awd legacy's

[BAC5.2]

actually it's quite the opposite, least in my case. When I was 4eat the shifts would come just a touch later than the 5mt turbo. I don't think it was the gear ratios on that that slowed me down. But at about 40-50 it would pull, and at 70-80 it was a car or two ahead. With the 5mt, it shifts quicker and it seems to pull just a hairin the next gear but then the turbo shifts and pulls back, but by then it's going faster anyway. Turbo seems to pull about the same mph-wise now as a 5mt though. It's a curse on the highway and gas mileage

Auto - 5MT?

The auto has 4 gears, that are longer than the 5MT's gears, right?

I know my 95L 4EAT would shift to 4th at like 95, 3rd in the SS only goes to just before 90.

I wish I was still stock so I could figure out how well stock for stock an SS matches to a 5MT N/A. But then I accelerate REALLY REALLY fast, and I forget allll about wanting to be stock.

[THAWA]

yes

yes

your 95 is uber wierd, I could max out at about 73 in second.

[georryan]

I really want to compare my brother's car to my car. Once he gets the 4.11 gears in a sport sedan, I'm really curious to see how it performs stock to my lightly modded SS.